A few random non-spoiler thoughts about Heated Rivalry

[olivermoss]

* I am a big fan of shows being weekly. I powered through Stranger Things like it was my job yesterday to avoid being more spoiled. I want media that respects my time. It's also better for fandom.

Interestingly, in his second What Chaos interview Jacob Tierney said it's better for him as a creator. He can better tell what is hitting and what is not when the shows come out weekly. The feedback he wants to polish his craft doesn't exist in the binge model.

* Fandom has had top/bottom discourse forever. 99% of it is bad faith. First off all, yes, some gay people *do* identify as tops and bottoms. It was more common in the 80s and 90s, but it's still a thing that happens and is part of North American gay culture. (And elsewhere, but I am talking about NA here) Also, tagging a character as a top or bottom in a fic isn't a big fucking deal, it's telling people what type of smut to expect.

So, anyway, neither Shane or Ilya have top or bottom as part of their identity, but they have clear roles sexually. When the books were adapted by a gay man he didn't soften that, he leaned into it. I am shattered that my mind isn't dirty enough to have picked up on team logos being either phallic or.... peach-tastic. He assigned whole teams as tops and bottoms. Boston and Dallas? Tops. Montreal and San Jose San Francisco? Bottoms.

He's not being serious. It's a joke, a joke that works because, yes, tops and bottoms are things in NA-based gay culture. Even though, yes, a significant percentage of gay men don't actually engage in that.

It's a really bad sign of how much long-term fannish discourse has gotten into my head that seeing a gay man divide the entire NHL into tops and bottoms as a joke feels so good. I've been hearing people scream online that the concept of tops and bottoms doesn't exist outside of women fetishizing gay men, but that bullshit take only works online. There is a section of people in fandom who spend all day online and post a lot who really need to crack a window. I've known multiple gay men who ID this way, and it's usually a bit tongue in cheek. But yeah, me tagging who tops in a fic is not that big of a fucking deal, people need to settle down.

* Related to my last point about the section of online fandom that needs to crack a window... Before Heated Rivalry came out there was a creator whose deep dives on the books were the top google and youtube search results. He's had to private those videos and most of his content because when the show blew up the most detached-from-reality online discourses latched onto his videos and spewed comments that don't even make sense. It's just concentrated, fermented discourse that some people have made their entire personality. They were telling him his experiences and identity as a gay man weren't valid over and over again to the point where he mostly erased his entire foray into content creation because he couldn't handle the sheer volume of people saying the same things to him over and over.

Comments

[muccamukk]

I'm getting such a mix of "It's so fun to be in a mega fandom again!!!" and "the children are exhausting" on this one.

[olivermoss]

It's amazing to see how this canon is lighting up online spaces, but also I am noping out out of a lot of them really quick. It's less the kids getting to me than the people who've clearly been in the discourse trenches for decades. Not to mention the OG SidOvi shipper crash outs I've seen.

[muccamukk]

I thought we'd all decided that it was Stucky reskinned?

[olivermoss]

Scott/Kip 100% started out as a Stucky fic on Ao3. For Shane and Ilya, they are original characters whose initial careers were based on the SidOvi rivalry. The author has openly said that a documentary on them as part of her research. But, yeah, when writing you do research.

[muccamukk]

Oh okay. I missed most of that. I resent that I know about SidOvi in the first place, in that everything I know about hockey is against my will.

[mistressofmuses]

Saaaaame on the weekly show thing. I'm not always good about keeping up with shows on that weekly schedule, but I have grown to *hate* having to binge things. Part of it is just a me problem: after a couple hours at most, my attention is drifting, and I cannot stay focused. I want to be able to give something the attention it deserves if I'm actually wanting to *watch* it. But other than just being a me thing, I hate the pressure to watch it now-now-now or else you're going to get spoiled. Plus yeah, weekly lends itself to much better fandom participation and space, and for more people to get drawn in; having a whole thing at once tends to be so much more one-and-done and then moved on from.

Fucking top/bottom discourse; the wank that will never die.

Man, that sucks for that creator. I'm so glad to see such an excited fandom for something like this... but UGH, of course that comes with the between 1 and 10% of fans that decide to be utterly unhinged and toxic at people. Ugh.

[olivermoss]

Then I still spare you the crashout deets, even the amusing ones that ignore the concept of linear time.

I also apologize in advance for any Joey Daccord posts I may make >.>

[olivermoss]

The first few seasons on Stranger Things had an unusual story structure that lent themselves really well to binging, but most canons don't. The episode structure feels clunkier with each ep binging most shows.

I want canons to respect my time and be good fandom fodder, fun thing to chat about. I am so over binging being the default.

Yeah, unhinged fans and also dedicated discourses who hop to whatever is big, whether or not they've consumed the canon. The amount of discoursers who talk like Shane is white because they want to smugly say the things the same things they always say, the things they feel so smart for saying ....

[muccamukk]

I'm sure you'll be making far fewer posts than like... half of the rest of my flist right now anyway. Mostly it's nice to see people having fun, but it HAD to be hockey? OH WELL.

[rekishi]

I've been hearing people scream online that the concept of tops and bottoms doesn't exist outside of women fetishizing gay men, but that bullshit take only works online.

This is giving me a headache, I thought we were beyond that. (I am not that tuned into the online bs anymore for...reasons.) Yes, people do, get over it. jfc.

[olivermoss]

Weirdly, hockey clicked for me in a way no other team sport ever has. My brain is incapable of caring about baseball, soccer, etc.

I'd love more hockey fans on my feed. Hrm, I wonder if a hockey-friending meme is possible?

[olivermoss]

It keeps coming back around. I just need to stay the heck away from it

[mistressofmuses]

Episodic structures are their own thing. Often they're less like chapters in a book (where you may want to keep reading/binging!) and are intended to be more self-contained. It's, I know, tricky to balance what that type of episodic structure is intended to do, for itself as its own thing, plus serving the bigger arc of the season or series... but yeah, that contained story aspect starts to get a lot rougher when you try to binge it all in one go.

Big same. I rarely get into the big fandom thing, but I like SEEING things get fandom, rather than things just being a flash on release date and then crickets. Plus, as someone who is just terrible at watching something right away, I like feeling like I could catch up on something and join in at a later time, which is much more possible with things on a slower release schedule. When something was released in one go, and everyone already binged it, binging it later does not give much of an entry into fandom, because the fandom enthusiasm has probably burned out.

Ugh. That is so frustrating. You're right: a lot of the worst culprits just love to jump fandoms and pick the same fights the instant something new is getting popular. They don't watch those canons or care if those fights actually make sense or if the points they're making have any factual basis. They just want to be smug and right and spread misery, lol

[olivermoss]

First few seasons of S1 had an highly unusual structure where it was plotted like a 9 hour movie, not like a 9 episode show. Even down to how the scripts were formatted. Most shows aren't structured that way and it goes contrary to the training most script writers, especially TV ones, have.

I have binged traditionally formatted shows, but I'd like that to be an option. TV shouldn't feel like an obligation. Yeah, people need time to catch up and have a chance to be a part of things. I honestly think that Netflix is going to have a rough year this year with their one in-house IP being over and focusing on content that is designed to be second-screen content.

[mistressofmuses]

The first seasons did have a much more "this is a really long movie" feel, and so you're right; I'm sure that's part of why it felt "right" to binge it, in a way that a lot of other things don't really work so well with.

I've certainly binged a few series, but I almost never end up enjoying the experience. My attention drifts after about two, maybe three hours. Even if I didn't want it to be, it turns into second-screen content, because I just can't typically focus on one thing for longer than that. I wish it did feel more optional; it's ridiculous to expect that everyone interested in something should set aside between 6 and 10 hours to IMMEDIATELY watch an entire season of things. Yet culturally, you risk being spoiled or left behind completely if you don't get through it on day one, and the service may not count your viewership at all if you don't watch it within the first two days or five days or whatever the current metric is. It sucks!

I do wonder how Netflix is going to do. I imagine that's part of the push to acquire Warner Brothers, because I'm sure that will keep the numbers looking good for a while, but how that actually pans out in the long run is still a question mark. I'm sure there were lots of people who were hanging onto their memberships for Stranger Things and not much else at this point (considering everything else has gotten cancelled, ha.) I've kept it around a long while because it's the only thing I have ad-free, but after watching a few other things that I want to, I might ditch it, too.

[olivermoss]

I used to be able to binge and enjoy it, but I can't any more. I feel bad doing it, and it makes me watch to also be doing something else... and then I am not focusing.

I wonder if Netflix is going to have serious problems this year since their main IP is over in most people's minds, even if they are doing some spin off stuff.

Who trusts them with any IP right now? The whole 'look at the new hype thing' strategy isn't going to work anymore, because audiences are too burned out on cancellations. So, who is going to case if they acquire anything or try to develop anything? Nostalgia IPs are overmined. Fragmented audiences mean there are no new nostalgia IPs popping up as time passes.

[mistressofmuses]

Yeah. If I have something on for particularly long, it has to turn into second-screen content, and I don't like that if it was something I actually wanted to see! I like having things on for background noise, but that's often because I want it to help me focus on something else... so I don't watch anything I care about close attention to that way.

I do wonder how Netflix will do from here. I'm not surprised that they're leaning on the spin off things, but I don't know how effective that will be. There'll be some people into it, but not like the enthusiasm for the main series.

But right? Chasing the Stranger Things high isn't going to lead to "the next Stranger Things." And right?? Who is going to want to give them any IP they actually feel strongly about? I've largely given up on watching series, even if they sound interesting, because I know I'll get burned by a cancellation if I DO get invested. I don't know what they're going to pivot to, except for relying on a new influx of properties by buying out a rival, but that seems like it'll ultimately be just a bandaid.

[olivermoss]

It's weird that Netflix hasn't spent the last two years building a new IP, something people would check out while watching for Stranger Things. Maybe they've got some markets on lock that I don't know about. But the audience they built their brand on, there's just nothing.

If they get an IP I am into, why would I want to go on the same roller coaster again?

I would like to be into a long series. I've enjoyed that in the past. Can't imagine investing time at this point.

[mistressofmuses]

Right? Like... I guess they hype Wednesday pretty hard? But I did not like the first season, and did not want to see more. (Casting was largely great. Could be a fine YA series doing its own thing, I guess, if not one I'd be into. As an Addams Family adaptation? Hate it.)

I guess there are likely some other shows on there that are a big deal in genres I just don't care about... but yeah, nothing I'd say is meant to (or certainly isn't succeeding in) holding on to the ST audience.

But exactly... It's going to be hard for me to push myself to care about another series on there, because yeah... why would I want to get invested in something that will, if I'm *lucky*, get a rushed additional season trying to get the story out before cancellation, or if I'm unlucky, will get zero closure before cancellation?

The idea of getting into something long-running has some appeal... but I also feel the same: the time investment is so huge, and feels difficult to justify to myself, even if I knew I'd have the opportunity to be into something that lasts.

[olivermoss]

They hype Wednesday, but that is a licensed IP. Stranger Things is an in-house IP. A chunk of the revenue from Wednesday goes to Amazon. There is a massive difference between a licensed IP and an owned one. Them not growing anything in-house is insane. They are locking in that YA audience, but not to something they have that level of control over.

They've gone hard on international stuff, so maybe they don't care. But they built their company on hyping geeks over 'finally an ending to the X Files!' and GoT and... and a long list. A painfully long list.

[mistressofmuses]

That's true... almost everything I can think of is a licensed IP. Lots of book adaptations, or reboot type things... A few movies, but those don't have the "stick around" draw of a series. I guess Bridgerton is big in circles that aren't me, but same deal, and also ending.

It seems fitting that the ad I keep seeing for them is "What's 'N'ext?" because... yeah, that's my question! I'm not sure that the ad answered the question!

[olivermoss]

Yeah, cancelling my sub was just relief. I didn't have a scrap of fomo, which was weird.