I was there Gandalf...

[olivermoss]

Leverage viewership took off right after it was cancelled. TNT was a weird fit for the show and it didn't reach it's audience until after it was in reruns on other channels. I missed out on that post-cancellation fandom boom because I had no idea that it happened.

What is weird is that in Leverage fandom spaces I am often in the extreme minority of having watching it while it aired, being aware of the OG fandom dramas, saw the early promo, went to fandom events and, crucially, didn't watch the whole series with the context of The Run Down Job. A lot of current fandom was pimped in based on things from that episode. Their view of everything is different.

It's not bad, it's just weird. Most of current fandom also came in with very established metas and fanon takes. I've had some 'you know that's not canon right?' convos with people a few times.

Even with a new canon infusion the fandom has extremely low wanks levels, so I don't mean to make it all sound wanky, it's just odd. I think some people saw highly embroidered metas, watched the shows and then never went back and thought about whether the meta they read was in the same zip code as reality.

Comments

[muccamukk]

This is interesting to me, because I did watch Leverage as it came out, but as a filthy casual, and to be honest I was only ever here for various combinations of the OT3 and sometimes Tara (though fandom HATED her, iirc). So I got the original context, but missed most of the drama. And the meta. And apparently the fanon.

[olivermoss]

I loved Tara from the start! She's amazing. Actually, wait, no I was a little pissed at TPTB because I did fully buy that she was a one-off and not a team member. The reveal got me.

A lot of the fandom drama came from, well, SPN fandom and general CW-adjacency.

[mistressofmuses]

It's always weird to me how metas can sometimes seem to get canonized by a fandom. It's not always terrible, and it's not that I *mind* strong fanons that get shared as frequent interpretations...
But every once in a while I do wish people could take a step back and really look at those metas and remember that they are just that - good metas that build up a convincing BUT NOT TRULY CANON interpretation based on things that ARE canon.

It is frustrating as someone who came into the Leverage fandom much later (still stalled out in the middle of season 4 and not sure why, exactly) to find out that part of the alleged canon that made me interested in the series in the first place... isn't canon, it's just widely-accepted fanon, and being told over and over "nope, this is actually canon for reals!" kinda feels bait-and-switch-y. That might be why I stalled out on the series, tbh.

There's plenty to keep me interested: The writing is great! The cons are the part I was most interested in ANYWAY! It doesn't make the characters any less fantastic! I've never picked my fandoms or interests based on whether a ship I like is or isn't canon. So I'm sure I will get back to it.

I feel like it's maybe a bit adjacent to an issue you've mentioned with trans media club: people get interpretations/meta/fanon/theories mixed up a bit with "actual indisputable canon", and it's always frustrating.

[olivermoss]

There have been some good discussions on the discords as to why this sort of bait and switch isn't good.

I've stopped short of saying 'telling people they have amazing canon rep and then finding out it's bullshit meta mostly based on a character having a fondness for cereal is a really fucking shitty thing to do to people!' It also has to due with the actor having food restrictions and simplifying the on-set logistics for dealing with that. Cereal has a uniform look, doesn't need refrigeration and comes in little sealed packets right from a factory so 0 allergen cross contamination worries. Because the discussions have been good and productive I've tried to find ways to nicely lead people towards 'if you really think this through it's amazingly shitty' thing.

The show is great and John Rogers has his own following for being the most open and accessible showrunner ever. He had blogged/posted/podcasted about everything from research to crunchy logistics of show running, writer pay structures in hollywood, directing, and so much more ... basically a lot of writers, pro and fan, learned a lot about wring from John Roger's complete openness about the process. He's also been brutally open about when he's made mistakes and also the pushback from the networks on diversity.

If you ever want the show's commentaries I can point you in the direction of downloads. John Rogers and Jonathan Frakes drinking whiskey and (lovingly) complaining about the actors is a lot of fun. Dean has great stories, Aldis is very silly, Beth is ... about how you'd expect and the few times they have Kane on the commentaries he talks over everyone to ramble about stunt logistics and safety.

Yeah, people get overinvested in identifying with characters. They slide from vibing with them to losing themselves in metas. Also, it's been a trend to be all [character] is canonically [identity]. It's partially a meme. It's partially 'activism' because it 'upsets the right people'. But really, you are lying to people with those identities.

I've actually gotten shit for writing/shipping anything besides the OT3 because 'this is our only good canon rep and you need to respect it's importance' I've been asked if I was polyphobic...

I mean, some coding on Leverage was 100% intentional because they could not do the thing. They couldn't get a lesbian side character approved until season 4. Eliot playing the pronoun game a lot didn't happen by accident. JR & co did some coding and symbolism very intentionally, but it's still not canon. However, it was not the showrunner's intent to code Parker as autistic. She has frozen emotional development from childhood trauma. Her having multiple serious traumas in her background is canon. She doesn't have sensory issues. People get told that Parker is canon autistic and loved and accepted for who she is ... only to wind up with metas that are mostly about cereal and the character being called looney tunes by her family up through season 5.

That is all partially why I am enjoying the new, rebooted Roswell so much. The plot and the main pairing ... exist I guess. But the boys actually kiss each other! It's so goddam refreshing...

[mistressofmuses]

Okay, so I have felt like an enormous asshole for it, but I don't really care for the autistic!Parker headcanon, *especially* as a handful of the tags and tumblrs I follow for Leverage have sort of enshrined it as "this is the only valid interpretation of her character." And like... I feel like I'm being a DICK, because I'm not autistic (though the ADHD bumps up with some overlapping traits), and I CERTAINLY never want to "yuck someone's yum" or tell them they can't interpret a loved character the way they want. I'm a big fan of "don't like it, don't read it", so I've got no problem scrolling on by. But I've seen more and more of it eating up the ship tags I do follow, and a lot of it is a particular cutesy twee version of her character that really rubs me the wrong way.

I never use things like Twitter, so I don't follow him directly, but every bit of writing advice and content and process info that I've ever seen from John Rogers had left me with tons of respect for him in both a professional capacity and for him as a person. He seems like a great person all around (even as he admits his own flaws and missteps, which to me is part of what makes a great person.)

I appreciate the offer! I will absolutely hit you up for the commentaries if I ever want to watch them. It sounds like they'd be a lot of fun.

The impulse to identify with a character and then interpret them as sharing a trait with you is a totally understandable one! I get it! If people want trans headcanons, or autistic headcanons, or anything else, I'm thrilled that they're finding something they connect to and want to explore. Fandom is fantastic!
But conflating headcanons and meta and interesting interpretations with the actual for-real canon is always going to be a mess. It leads to people feeling misled, and to a lot of unearned animosity when people don't agree about that interpretation. And I've seen a handful of that, even in the refreshingly low-wank Leverage fandom, of "and if you disagree with this interpretation you're wrong <3" tags and comments.

I'm very invested in the OT3 ship, and it's probably a bit of what stalled me out on the series because it seems like Redemption trashed it pretty hard. I'll get over it: whether my favorite ship is canon or not has never been what I get invested in a show for, and this won't be where I start.

But it sucks that you've gotten crap from people for that NOT being your fave ship, and it certainly doesn't make you polyphobic for liking one pair the most!

Coding is a very real thing, and it's got a proud history! I know a lot of the stuff in Leverage was 100% deliberate. (The pronoun game may be my fave example, and it's one I appreciate every time it happens.) But that isn't the same as "this is what this character was intended to be and no other interpretation is ever ever valid."

As much as I can love a show regardless of whether my ship is canon, it sure would be nice to be into something where the boys get to ACTUALLY kiss each other for a change. (Or the girls get to kiss each other, I'm good with that too.)
Maybe I should give the new Roswell a shot. I loved the original late 90s/early 00s adaptation. Ah, young Katherine Heigl.
My dad was born and raised in Roswell, so it almost seems like I have to, haha.

[olivermoss]

The thing is that some people post constantly about Autistic!Parker being canon confirmed by word of god, so much so that a lot of fandom has accepted the idea. But, that is no true at all. That is the opposite of what JR said in the commentaries. And a lot of the metas focus on Parker's eating habits. I am not autistic so I need to stay in my lane, but I did special needs caregiving for a decade. The metas are mostly complete nonsense... and I think some confuse Autism and Tourettes or the Tik Tok take on Tourettes.

Not leaving room for other takes, like the actual canon reasons for her behaviors, is not good. Let other people vibe with Parker!

Tho, after some discord discussions on the topic, the person who was posting literally daily about 'canon autistic Parker' has stopped. In general there seems to be have been a drop off after that.

Headcanons are great, but fandom got super weird about their headcanons while it was off the air. And people talk like certain headcanons are based on canon, like Parker having debilitating sensory issues and Eliot struggling to get enough calories into her to just keep her alive. People exploring that idea is great, but it is a thousand miles from canon. It's extreme woobification.

I'm just very Eliot-centric so I like him in ships. I may have written 2k words of Eliot as a trans man being romanced by Quin instead of my actual writing project yesterday. Oops.

I really want to go to Roswell and be a horrible, annoying, alien obsessed tourist someday! Okay, maybe not annoying but it would be really cool to go. I assume the real city looks nothing like the show. Probably a lot more tourist traps.

[mistressofmuses]

Yeah, I certainly don't want to swerve out of my lane on it either, but it really is an interpretation I just don't much vibe with. Especially the trend toward "this is absolutely canon and you cannot say otherwise" when so many of those fics and snippets and such being shared feel so OOC to me.

I am glad that that person chilled out about it. Maybe it'll taper off in the places I've been seeing it, too.

Like... I can see that being a fine idea to explore in a fic. Not sure it would be my cup of tea, but I can see why it would appeal to someone. But conflating those ideas with "this is somehow now canon" is just a weird thing to do.

You aren't WRONG. Eliot is in fact wonderful. Hey 2k words is 2k words, and that's great!

I've only been to Roswell once where I was old enough to remember, and that was toward the tail end of high school. (Most of my dad's side of the family still lives there.) I remember there being a very silly little alien/ufo museum that was wildly cheesy, but I loved. Probably pretty tourist-trap-y, but also just kind of general small town. I think pre-estrangement my dad and my sibling went for an annual alien festival, which sounded fun! I couldn't go because I had something I was doing for school, I think, and I'm still bummed I missed it.

[olivermoss]

I am hoping that the whole 'you have to see the character this way' thing is starting to get broken up. But fandom is so hivemind on this that it may take a while. It would be really useful if fic where she's neurodiverse or has other identities was tagged.

Thanks! I intend to keep working on this second fic, but I don't want to get derailed from the first. I've been wanting to write a trans Eliot fic because someone on tumblr keeps throwing tempter tantrums and saying we can't headcanon Eliot as trans. I am liking this approach to it, and the world needs more Quinn/Eliot.

Oooh... Alien Festival. Sounds amazing. Cheesy can be fun, if it's the right kind of cheese.

[mistressofmuses]

I definitely hope the same. It's weird to watch those fandom hiveminds develop. To be fair, I have seen it tagged fairly often... but I know I've also found it untagged. "MOAR TAGGING" always seems like something that would at least improve fandom things, even if it can't solve everything.

Spite is an excellent motivator. (And why on earth would anyone say that you can't have trans Eliot headcanons?) I hope it doesn't derail you too bad, but am glad that you're continuing it!

I am sad I missed out on the alien festival! I feel like Roswell UFO crash stuff often hits on just the right amount of cheesy for me. I like both the genuine "what if" mystery, and the actual spooky unknown, but also kind of the silly alien conspiracies that are out there.

[olivermoss]

I think part of why they develop is that no one wants to push because on tumblr. No one wants to the subject of an 'this person is just 'phobic' post. You can't have real conversations on tumblr. If you see a post with a hundred notes and give a debunking, the other people reblogging the post don't see it ... they just see that it's getting more notes which implies people agree with it. The whole structure of tumblr is made for hiveminding and extreme bubble effects.

The person on tumblr has reasons why you can't HC Eliot as trans, but they are dumb reasons.

There is a bigfoot festival out here I've never been to. Someday!

[mistressofmuses]

Tumblr really isn't meant for any kind of back and forth or debate, and ABSOLUTELY lends itself toward extremes and hiveminding. And yeah, the wrong person dislikes your position and you could be getting dogpiled for weeks or longer.

Lol, they'd all be dumb reasons.

Ooh, a bigfoot festival sounds fun, too!