![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
'Now if you are feeling the urge to argue with me over this take a deep breath, calm down and channel that energy somewhere productive: your novel'
(Slightly paraphrased because audiobook.)
That's it. Pack it in. This goes on my DNF pile.
Note: Save The Cat Writes A Novel is not by the same writer as the well known Save The Cat screenwriting book and I don't know the exact relationship between them.
I have a few gripes with this book, but tried to muddle through anyway. It was useful to help me unpack ideas about plot and also I compared it to some canons that made for good analysis.
The book is very dogmatic about the idea that it's not a formula, it's an underlying code to how stories work. She counters the idea that it's a formula a lot, or tries to. She uses a pool of books to prove her points over and over again. I didn't know most of the canons she referenced, but for some of the ones I did know... they did not back up her point at all. After every set of comparisons it's always 'now you see' how it's not a formula but a universal code. I was just sitting there shaking my head.
I want to discuss the book and my reaction to it a bit, but to be clear I am not trying to refute it. Any book this smug and dogmatic disproves itself. I am sure that I've seen some films that followed this formula and I enjoyed them, and I am sure that sometimes I've been watching or reading something and think to myself 'the bad guy is going to turn out to be alive and return in 5... 4.. 3..'
The book claims that all MC problems are always purely internal and them ever seeking an external solution is a mistake. It claims that people around the MC often know or try to tell them, but they are silly and stubborn and need to be completely broken down to accept the truth.
Let's take a plot where a family is starving, so the intrepid elder daughter goes out to get a job. According to this method, employment is external and chasing the job is them failing to address the real problem. I am not taking the piss and using a silly example, this is an example plot they used to prove the whole 'all problems are internal, chasing external solutions is always a mistake' thing. I just... I can't even follow the logic there. A lot of the examples the book uses are just bizarre.
But, what about crime fiction, other genre fiction or any story that has a basis in real events? What about stories written to process trauma?
My first thought was about Buffy and how vampires existing is definitely an external problem. Does Buffy have a lot to learn? Yes, it's a coming of age story. Does she grow and change? Yes. Is the plot to certain individual episodes her facing down something purely internal? Yes. But, overall, the problem is that predators exist and she needs to fight back.
The predators in the story are metaphors for real world predators, so real world external factors. In an early episode a bunch of frat boys are worshiping a snake in their basement. This script was almost cut for being too on the nose according to writer interviews I've read.
A main conflict in early Buffy is that there is a powerful older man who just can't stay away from her. He seems nice, but as soon as they boink he loses his soul and turns evil. This is clearly a metaphor for older, more powerful men who seem charming but as soon as they get what they want they are sociopaths. That's the main conflict in this story by... Joss Whedon. Joss, where do you get your ideas?
A lot of genre stuff is based on reality in one way or another. That is part of why I don't like this repeated talk of problems only ever being purely inside the MC. A lot of genre is about putting people in usual circs and seeing how they deal. And some genre is about purely internal stuff. Both are good! Stories can even be a mix!
One of my backburner projects is a Steampunk Jeeves & Wooster story with horror elements. It's based off of my experience falling off of a cliff. Specifically, it's about the second time I fell off of a cliff. Characters learn and grow, what they learn is based off of what I learned, but it's about external strange situations and the pressure that puts on characters.
I feel like the Cat World approach is part of why a lot of genre settings feel like set dressing. That's been a rising complaint for a while, especially in Urban Fantasy. In some genre stuff the world even being coherent isn't treated as important and I've seen creators react like even noticing that is missing the point. (Cat World is a shorthand the book uses) She is very insistent that Cat World applies to all genres, even books where the 'fun stuff' is space ships.
"Your hero has the answer to their problem the whole time, they just refused to listen!" is the central problem of novels in Cat World. Also, no one else ever has to change, it's always only the MC. <- that is specifically stated in the book.
I really do not like the idea that MCs should be surrounded by people telling them what's wrong with them, who they really are. I think most people know who they are, on some level and always show their true colors even when deep in denial about it. Also, as a queer person, I have a chip on my shoulder about people being really, really insistent about who I am.
When I was in college, one of my friends was assigned to a small house the college owned instead of a dorm. Another resident of the house came in while having a loud conversation with friends. Literally the first thing we heard her say was 'That's me, Little Miss Path of Least Resistance!' She was talking about having gone off-trail to skip switchbacks and have an easier time of things, even though it meant she missed a lot of view points. A few weeks later y friend's food was disappearing. She's been assigned to a house with a kitchen due to food allergies so she could cook, and her food was going poof. Turned out, Little Miss PoLR was eating her food rather than bothering to go to the food hall or shopping. A few months later she was kicked out of school for copying other people's assignments.
Now, that example is way too on the nose. It's very 'reality is unrealistic'. I'd never be that in your face in a real story. But, people do this all the time. They tell you, in one way or another, who they are. I think an MC who shows their hand is more interesting than one with someone going 'Hey, listen!' And also, it's based on how people actually operate.
When I was a convention director, we'd have yearly retreats to do the budget and also see how we all worked with each other. Every year, the person who wouldn't help make dinner would not do their share of the work. Those who wouldn't help clean up gave no fucks about creating more work for other directors, etc. That retreat always showed how the whole year would go. It was both painful and comic how accurate it was.
I feel like Cat World looks down on MCs. They are described as 'malfunctioning robots whirring about with broken code'. I think she even called MCs silly at one point. I don't know how to write an MC I don't respect and think has some self awareness. People identify with MCs, it's what makes them compelling. I feel like looking down on my MC would be me looking down on the readers.
So, yeah, this book and I don't vibe. I think problems can be external. I think characters tend to know who they are on some level, no matter who in denial or blocked or bottled up they are. I think a character betraying who they really are, even if they don't realize it, is far more interesting than their BFF going 'BTW prejudice is bad'. I also think all MCs are flawed.
I did want to try to 15 point beat sheet and write one of those stories where you keep tightly to it as an exercise. But then I hit that line I put at the top and just... I was done. Thinking about that approach was interesting and I realized that certain things I've heard people be very insistent about was Cat World thinking. Sometimes, I've talked to people who are so insistent about things and I just didn't get it... I thought I just didn't get stories but now I see it's just people being into Cat World. Cat World beat sheets are probably good for trying to break into screen writing just as long as you don't take the method as seriously as it takes itself.
Also, quick shout out to the Overly Sarcastic Productions episode on amnesia for having some points on writing stories a certain way because that is how stories are written versus writing stories based in reality and how the world really works.
(Slightly paraphrased because audiobook.)
That's it. Pack it in. This goes on my DNF pile.
Note: Save The Cat Writes A Novel is not by the same writer as the well known Save The Cat screenwriting book and I don't know the exact relationship between them.
I have a few gripes with this book, but tried to muddle through anyway. It was useful to help me unpack ideas about plot and also I compared it to some canons that made for good analysis.
The book is very dogmatic about the idea that it's not a formula, it's an underlying code to how stories work. She counters the idea that it's a formula a lot, or tries to. She uses a pool of books to prove her points over and over again. I didn't know most of the canons she referenced, but for some of the ones I did know... they did not back up her point at all. After every set of comparisons it's always 'now you see' how it's not a formula but a universal code. I was just sitting there shaking my head.
I want to discuss the book and my reaction to it a bit, but to be clear I am not trying to refute it. Any book this smug and dogmatic disproves itself. I am sure that I've seen some films that followed this formula and I enjoyed them, and I am sure that sometimes I've been watching or reading something and think to myself 'the bad guy is going to turn out to be alive and return in 5... 4.. 3..'
The book claims that all MC problems are always purely internal and them ever seeking an external solution is a mistake. It claims that people around the MC often know or try to tell them, but they are silly and stubborn and need to be completely broken down to accept the truth.
Let's take a plot where a family is starving, so the intrepid elder daughter goes out to get a job. According to this method, employment is external and chasing the job is them failing to address the real problem. I am not taking the piss and using a silly example, this is an example plot they used to prove the whole 'all problems are internal, chasing external solutions is always a mistake' thing. I just... I can't even follow the logic there. A lot of the examples the book uses are just bizarre.
But, what about crime fiction, other genre fiction or any story that has a basis in real events? What about stories written to process trauma?
My first thought was about Buffy and how vampires existing is definitely an external problem. Does Buffy have a lot to learn? Yes, it's a coming of age story. Does she grow and change? Yes. Is the plot to certain individual episodes her facing down something purely internal? Yes. But, overall, the problem is that predators exist and she needs to fight back.
The predators in the story are metaphors for real world predators, so real world external factors. In an early episode a bunch of frat boys are worshiping a snake in their basement. This script was almost cut for being too on the nose according to writer interviews I've read.
A main conflict in early Buffy is that there is a powerful older man who just can't stay away from her. He seems nice, but as soon as they boink he loses his soul and turns evil. This is clearly a metaphor for older, more powerful men who seem charming but as soon as they get what they want they are sociopaths. That's the main conflict in this story by... Joss Whedon. Joss, where do you get your ideas?
A lot of genre stuff is based on reality in one way or another. That is part of why I don't like this repeated talk of problems only ever being purely inside the MC. A lot of genre is about putting people in usual circs and seeing how they deal. And some genre is about purely internal stuff. Both are good! Stories can even be a mix!
One of my backburner projects is a Steampunk Jeeves & Wooster story with horror elements. It's based off of my experience falling off of a cliff. Specifically, it's about the second time I fell off of a cliff. Characters learn and grow, what they learn is based off of what I learned, but it's about external strange situations and the pressure that puts on characters.
I feel like the Cat World approach is part of why a lot of genre settings feel like set dressing. That's been a rising complaint for a while, especially in Urban Fantasy. In some genre stuff the world even being coherent isn't treated as important and I've seen creators react like even noticing that is missing the point. (Cat World is a shorthand the book uses) She is very insistent that Cat World applies to all genres, even books where the 'fun stuff' is space ships.
"Your hero has the answer to their problem the whole time, they just refused to listen!" is the central problem of novels in Cat World. Also, no one else ever has to change, it's always only the MC. <- that is specifically stated in the book.
I really do not like the idea that MCs should be surrounded by people telling them what's wrong with them, who they really are. I think most people know who they are, on some level and always show their true colors even when deep in denial about it. Also, as a queer person, I have a chip on my shoulder about people being really, really insistent about who I am.
When I was in college, one of my friends was assigned to a small house the college owned instead of a dorm. Another resident of the house came in while having a loud conversation with friends. Literally the first thing we heard her say was 'That's me, Little Miss Path of Least Resistance!' She was talking about having gone off-trail to skip switchbacks and have an easier time of things, even though it meant she missed a lot of view points. A few weeks later y friend's food was disappearing. She's been assigned to a house with a kitchen due to food allergies so she could cook, and her food was going poof. Turned out, Little Miss PoLR was eating her food rather than bothering to go to the food hall or shopping. A few months later she was kicked out of school for copying other people's assignments.
Now, that example is way too on the nose. It's very 'reality is unrealistic'. I'd never be that in your face in a real story. But, people do this all the time. They tell you, in one way or another, who they are. I think an MC who shows their hand is more interesting than one with someone going 'Hey, listen!' And also, it's based on how people actually operate.
When I was a convention director, we'd have yearly retreats to do the budget and also see how we all worked with each other. Every year, the person who wouldn't help make dinner would not do their share of the work. Those who wouldn't help clean up gave no fucks about creating more work for other directors, etc. That retreat always showed how the whole year would go. It was both painful and comic how accurate it was.
I feel like Cat World looks down on MCs. They are described as 'malfunctioning robots whirring about with broken code'. I think she even called MCs silly at one point. I don't know how to write an MC I don't respect and think has some self awareness. People identify with MCs, it's what makes them compelling. I feel like looking down on my MC would be me looking down on the readers.
So, yeah, this book and I don't vibe. I think problems can be external. I think characters tend to know who they are on some level, no matter who in denial or blocked or bottled up they are. I think a character betraying who they really are, even if they don't realize it, is far more interesting than their BFF going 'BTW prejudice is bad'. I also think all MCs are flawed.
I did want to try to 15 point beat sheet and write one of those stories where you keep tightly to it as an exercise. But then I hit that line I put at the top and just... I was done. Thinking about that approach was interesting and I realized that certain things I've heard people be very insistent about was Cat World thinking. Sometimes, I've talked to people who are so insistent about things and I just didn't get it... I thought I just didn't get stories but now I see it's just people being into Cat World. Cat World beat sheets are probably good for trying to break into screen writing just as long as you don't take the method as seriously as it takes itself.
Also, quick shout out to the Overly Sarcastic Productions episode on amnesia for having some points on writing stories a certain way because that is how stories are written versus writing stories based in reality and how the world really works.
no subject
Date: 2022-01-26 05:40 pm (UTC)From:Character being clueless and getting a self-esteem shovel talk from everyone they know is one of the YA tropes that makes me not read YA very much. I tend to like it better in romance where part of making the relationship work comes with some self-acceptance, but usually both MCs have to do that, at least.
no subject
Date: 2022-01-26 09:41 pm (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2022-01-27 07:00 am (UTC)From:So far, Romancing the Beat is much better. I'm glad, dismissing all these experts was making me wonder if I was blind to something ;)
no subject
Date: 2022-01-27 05:56 am (UTC)From:I still do not blame you for DNFing it after that line.
It absolutely sounds like they don't respect characters... or at least not protagonists. Honestly, I can't imagine enjoying a story that clings to all the things they're saying MUST be true of any and all stories. No external conflict? Everyone except the MC totally unchanging? The problem was inside the MC all along?
There are so many ways that alone could be skeevy. You picked some great examples with Buffy - saying that ALL problems come down to the MC's internal issues... like, not conflate fictional characters with real people, but wow could that be a victim-blamey stance to take, depending on what happens over the course of the story.
While I think that the MC having flaws and having to have some sort of growth arc is almost always a needed thing... having some respect for your MC seems necessary? You're right - someone treating the perspective character, who readers should hopefully identify with to some extent, with such a dramatic lack of any kind of respect... does seem like an unfortunate relationship to then have with a reader.
Ugh. Don't think I'll be clamoring to read this one. My sibling has the first Save the Cat, the one intended for screenwriting... It's interesting that they're written by different people; I wonder how they compare. Probably I do not wonder enough to try and find out, ha.
no subject
Date: 2022-01-27 07:48 am (UTC)From:I am halfway done with Romancing the Beat and it's way better so far. It reccs Save The Cat, so maybe the basic book is less insane.
It's such a limited view of what a story can be and do, and the role story can play. And I can't stop shaking my head over how it looks down on MCs
no subject
Date: 2022-01-28 03:48 am (UTC)From:I'm glad Romancing the Beat is better! I have heard of that one, but don't know anything about it.
Save the Cat gets recc'd a LOT, so I wonder if the original book is maybe better. Or at least less limiting.
The sheer NARROWNESS of that view of what a story can be or should be just seems... so wrong. Maybe I'm still just terribly naive, but it sounds like such a... mercenary way of looking at stories. The idea that there is only one way to tell a story, no matter what story you are telling is so very antithetical to my experience as a writer or as a reader!
no subject
Date: 2022-01-28 04:32 am (UTC)From:I don't think you are naive at all. Stories are a lot more than a rigid form where Form Is All and nothing else matters. It's so cold...
Two decades of fantasy lit was people trying to copy Tolkien, and Tolkien doesn't fit most of this. There are some hero's journey elements... but hilariously most people forget the point in LOTR that is the biggest hero's journey beat. Frodo did not throw the ring into the volcano. His big 'hero loses everything' moment was him refusing to do so. So many people, even self proclaimed Tolkien geeks, talk about Frodo tossing the right, when he lost it to a fight with Gollum. I see the mistake so often even in Tolkien metas that I don't even correct it any more. I don't think I've 'well actually'd about this in a solid decade now. People prefer a version of the story were that oh-so-crucial beat never happened.
Yeah, again, the main thing I got from this book is a better understanding of where people are coming from.
no subject
Date: 2022-01-29 02:53 am (UTC)From:I DO choose to believe that creative work is... more than that. It does feel terribly cold!
Right? "Destroying the One Ring" was actually the first thing I thought of with regards to "external problems" haha. Does it lead to internal conflict? Absolutely! But the rise of Sauron is very much external to the heroes.
(Though you're right - I feel like a LOT of people seem to completely forget that Frodo *failed* in his quest. He *did* succumb to the ring's influence! The ring was still destroyed, but Frodo didn't throw it into the fires. It's interesting how many people seem to misremember it or gloss over that... for such an influential work, it goes against the Big Heroic Moment, yet people just sort of... retroactively try to pretend it has that moment.)
no subject
Date: 2022-01-29 05:08 am (UTC)From:LOTR is about an external problem. It's also probably Tolkien processing World War 1 even though he rejected any such idea. And it's been used a lot since by readers to process hard times and how to get through them.
no subject
Date: 2022-01-30 03:24 am (UTC)From:Yeah, I have a very difficult time believing there's NO "processing the experiences of a horrific world war" in the work. Even if it was completely unintentional. Sometimes the work an author produces says a lot about the things they're dealing with, even when it's not deliberate allegory or inspiration. But absolutely true - it's gone on to offer a lot of strength to readers to get through their own hardships and trauma. And THAT, imo, is one of the valuable things storytelling can offer, not broken down into cold formula.