The mystery is solved

[olivermoss]

I am a dumbass.

I've tried to get specific pose references for a while. Porn references are easy, but guys just engaging in coupley, casual intimacy is hard. The pictures I find online are usually overly posed, when I can even find them.

A few times I've tried to buy pose refs, just try to solve my problems by throwing money at them. This always goes wrong. Some of you may have heard me complain about the first time this happened. It was my birthday, and I decided to buy myself a present. I was going to hire art models for an hour and take some pictures. There are a lot of art models in this town who pose for the various art classes and even the drop-in life drawing studio. What I got in response to my posting for clothed - I specified clothed because so many pose nude for life drawing - was an inbox was suddenly full of dicks. How confident middle aged white men are of their bodies cannot be overstated. And one of the emails had photos from a fetish photoshoot that were close ups of his twig and berries held in place by barbed wire.. (<-NSFW under cut) The pictures were not an attachment, they'd been put into the body of the email. He wanted me to know how extreme he'd go. Thanks ... I didn't need to know that!

I did sort through the dick-splosion and found some people who seemed competent and could follow instructions. I hired them aaaaand they flaked on me.

A few years ago, I tried again. I paid actual money for a photoshoot with people who model for drawing references. What I received has baffled me, until yesterday when I finally realized what happened.



Adorkastock, which until recently was Senshistock, does these kickstarters for special projects once in a while. If you back the project enough, you can get some custom images just for you. Sakki, who runs the project and is the main model, is reliable, makes lots of great stock and makes it for a fannish audience. I jumped at the opportunity.

I wanted a m/m couple on a couch, casual intimacy, and one resting their head on the other's shoulder. I wanted cuddling. I said to make it as intimate as they are comfortable with. If the request was not something they felt comfortable with I'd come up with another request. I don't want to pressure art models to have to touch each other. In this area, most wont. But I wanted to get a realistic feeling of bodies touching, which is really hard to find a reference for.

I got the images and was confused. They ... didn't look comfortable. The hand position was really weird. I didn't cause a fuss because people had traveled in for the shoot and reshoots were not possible. So I thanked Sakki, even though I was very confused and annoyed. I'd spent money and had no idea what to even use these refs for.

Here is a screencap of Queer Eye cast members I took from an interview, this is the sort of thing I'd been looking for:



Casual, relaxed, the bodies relate strongly to each other, the head is actually on the shoulder and not hovering, etc.

This is what I got:



That does not look comfortable. I don't understand the hand positions. I didn't want to be 'I don't get how that is cuddling'. I was too embarrassed. About half of the images they sent me were variations on that, the others were also not useful because one is a weird way to sprawl and ... yeah. *facepalm*

I've been sorting through all my image refs because I am trying to get a set for a drawing project. I went back to that folder again and started sending pictures from the file to a friend, complaining about what a pain in the ass it is to find image refs and also bitching about how even when I spend money I get stuff like this. It's weird right? I'm not missing something am I? I was trying to get my friend to validate me that these poses were weird.

Then, I realized what had happened. These are meant to be image refs for blow jobs. Somehow, she thought me talking about casual intimacy on a couch was being coy about asking for blow job image refs. I wanted 'head on shoulder' not 'head'! I literally didn't realize these were meant to be porn refs until yesterday.

If I wanted porn refs I know where to find them! Porn refs are easy! Two guys relaxing with each other after robbing a bank or saving the world is incredibly hard to find! There is a reason I've been combing through Queer Eye interviews for pictures of hugs and hand holding.

I am so dumb. I seriously did not get what was going on. For years I've been annoyed because I couldn't figure out how that was a thing couples would do. I just checked the original Kickstarer and it says, specifically, they'll only do PG-13 and all models need to approve the shots. Porn refs are out of bounds for the project and I would NOT ask for porn refs from people who specifically are not doing that.

I can't believe it. I am dumb, innocent and completely cursed.

I've tried to look back to see if I worded something really badly and I can't find my actual request in my email or on Kickstarter. I cannot find the convo, so I have no idea how 'head on shoulder' became 'head'. Did I word it all really clumsily because I was nervous asking for m/m romantic poses and also in the drawing sessions I've been to you Do Not do a pose request that involves touching? I just don't know.

Anyway, that is the story of how I accidentally spent $[redacted] on porn references.

Comments

[mekare]

Awww no that is awful. And I soo join your rant on there not being enough pose references for intimacy as opposed to porn!!! I have also started using screencaps from random films or TV series because those at least look authentically comfortable with each other (until Netflix disabled the screencap feature..grrrr). But having actually spent money on something that is the opposite of what you wanted is a let down. :-(
I remember starting a resource post on drawesome maybe two years ago because I had exactly this problem. I know Senshistock was recced and you probably have already looked through that post.

[olivermoss]

The BJ poses are from Senshistock's group pose ref Kickstarter! I also used to back her on Patreon for more poses but at the time she wasn't really keeping on top of Patreon stuff so I peaced out.

I have found Queer Eye interviews to be a goldmine. I tossed my own screencaps up here. There are a bit of a pain to DL, but I don't know a better place to host a file like that. Also JVN is gigantic and Tan is a pixie so if you need size difference refs, they are pretty good!

I just feel so dumb that I didn't figure out what was going on.

Anyway, I am sorting through a bunch of stuff because there is a specif thing I want to do, and it feels like I've been trying to do this sort of thing and just running into walls for a while.

[mistressofmuses]

That is really funny, but also frustrating! I would... also never have considered that this was a BJ pose, but now that you say that... oh damn, it sure is.

And GOD do I understand the frustration. I don't do a lot of visual art, but it's so much easier to find porn than sweet couple-y intimacy for reference.
(And heavens help if I want to sort out a PG-but-obviously-romantic OT3.)

[olivermoss]

Sweet, couply, and m/m is such a pain to find. I was watching a Bose headphones commercial at the end of a YT video that had two male roommates just chilling next to each other and I immediately paused and started screencapping. As I said above, Queer Eye cast interviews are great and I have a link to my caps there. I need to find a better place to host them.

Also refs for women are a thousand times easier to find. I used to use female post refs for guys and just try to fix the hips and stuff? But it always looked weird. I have the OT3 pose back from Senshistock, but it's also all girls. I think asking girl models to touch or be cute with each other is often considered okay. I've been in situations were asking the same of male models is considered super creepy and rude. Girls cuddled together sharing popcorn and watching a film? Cool! Asking that but with guys? Creeper alert!

[mistressofmuses]

It is such a pain as compared to sweet het or even f/f refs! And same with solo refs, where there seems to be FAR more variety around with female models. And same - I used to use refs of het couples or female pose refs and try to fix the proportions a bit, but that has its own challenges. If I ever find any decent m/m pose refs, I'll send 'em your way.

I feel like there's a ton of assumption of male intimacy being more inherently sexual, which may be why there's a pervasive feeling that asking men to pose together is more invasive or creepy than asking it of women. (And f/f contact and fanservice are so much more common in the mainstream, so it's almost expected, where m/m is still seen by a lot of people as the "creepy" purview of yaoi fangirls and such.)
On the other hand, female intimacy is comparatively desexualized, so that sweet, intimate, and couple-y f/f seems easily written off as "gal pals", unless they are doing something unambiguously and overtly sexual.

It's stupid how many ingrained cultural biases are still obvious in something as simple as finding fucking pose references.

[olivermoss]

Gender BS is art is out of control. I remember studying how female bodies were pretty much considered part of nature / the landscape in the few art history classes I did.

You're right. F/F intimacy is desexualized but also being fanservicy is expected of women. But when people look for the same from men everyone freaks out.

I do have some refs, if you want what I have I can send them your way, too. I need a place to store the refs I've gathered that I can share with people. It's such a stupid barrier. M/F is just so catered to.

I've slowly moved from being annoyed at refs to actually starting to draw.

[mistressofmuses]

It IS such out of control bullshit.

I may take you up on the refs offer! I don't do much (any) drawing anymore, but every once in a while I get the itch to, and having good refs to work from would be great!

Yay! I'm glad you're shifting into the actually-drawing stage!

[olivermoss]

I've gone through about 100 pages of results on Shutterstock for pictures, and spent a couple of hours screencapping QE cast interviews. I am slowly accumulating some good stuff.