olivermoss | Snowflake Challenge #5

Challenge #5

In your own space, talk about an idea you wish you had the time / talent / energy to do. Leave a comment in this post saying you did it. Include a link to your post if you feel comfortable doing so.

I have so many projects, but I haven't given up on getting them done. Some, though, I haven't made progress on in years. Partially, it's a focus/health thing. I've lost a lot of time to migraines. Partially, it's prioritizing photography thing.

If I take a chunk of time and decide to write or draw, I may or may not get anything done. If I take a chunk of time for photography, I will absolutely get things done. I have enough of a handle on photography that I can be reliably productive if I put energy towards it. Also, those hours on photography are also improving my skills. I am both getting stuff done, but I am also improving.

Even if I can't go out on a certain day, there is endless organizing to do, website updates, link seeding, etc.

With writing, I am second guessing myself or having trouble getting into the right brain-space. With drawing I feel bad that not having a good enough practice schedule means my skills always degrade.

I am not going to talk about my art projects. If I ever manage to get some of these done, I want them to drop out of nowhere... especially considering how long they've been in the development stage.

* My main goal is to write an original paranormal investigations fic series. I have two very different approaches I am considering, and have a lot developed and chunks written for both.

* I do want to write Leverage by Gaslight. World building it is fun, but still not sure what I want to do with it.

* I have two different John Constantine stories I am working on. I should really focus on the King Shark one as my one Sharkstantine fic gets a lot more eyes than my other current stuff.

* Another Leverage fic that I'm not going to talk about until I've got more nailed down

* Some Eliot/Quinn fics.

After some of the self-reflection I've done this year, I'd have thought I'd be better at getting out of my own way when writing. But, not there yet. I am tempted to explain a bit of why, but that would be a very long post and I am not going to get into right now. I am going to drink some more coffee, watch a bit of TV and then pick something to work on today.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Yeah, I had a tough time deciding on this one what to include because I really do feel like I'm going to get back to the majority of my WIP folder *someday* (yes, even to that one), and I wanted this to be "I'm absolutely not going to do that. At all."

WIP folders are dangerous! I try to think of some of them like sketches. In art you sketch a lot then draw one thing. I try to think of my wips in a similar way. It's practice, not a bottomless void of failure :)

Some of my WIPs with a lot of work put in, I will get them done... somehow

There's nothing wrong with prioritizing your health over your ideas and WIPs, and one thing I'm learning from reading the answers to this is that we're all frustrated by things we haven't been able to finish, yet at the very least completing the challenge is something that you have done. Point being, for everything we can't do - there's something we can. :D

Sometimes, you just need to figure out what you can get done. Getting stuff done is the only way to move forward.

I don't want to get too frustrated, which is why I do switch from writing to watching TV sometimes. Sitting here getting in my own head doesn't help.

Putting time and energy into photography has absolutely been a worthwhile thing! I love what you share.

But I hope that all of these writing projects get to a doable place for you. You'd mentioned a couple bits about the original paranormal one (or at least a version of it) before, and it sounds really cool!

And as soon as I finish Leverage + Redemption, I'll be all up on (more of) your Leverage fic.

I hate the feeling of getting in my own way while writing. For me at least, it's often because I have a sort of hypothetical critical audience judging what I'm doing. Sometimes it's just me. If you ever DO want to explain more about the whys for you, I'd be happy to commiserate.

Thanks! I do love photography. I've put in a lot of work into over the years. But, if I could swap around my skill points and put them into writing instead I would.

Thank you. Yeah, it's just a lot. It's both people being horrible and also fandom shenanigans causing my work to be buried. My confidence problem and people having been horrible, these two things sort of feed off of each other. I need to break past it.

If people diss my photography or say anyone could have taken the shot, I have a very 'Sure, Jan' sort of response. If I had that same confidence in my writing my life would be very different.

I wish I could rebuild my player character, to be honest.

But I do love your photography, so I'm glad you have skill points there... but I also understand what you mean!
(But if it's not stretching the metaphor too far, I also think that you'll level up and keep getting more points to put into writing, as you keep going with it as a skill. It just sucks how slow the leveling is.)

Yeah... I can absolutely sympathize with that. I know you've had some of the WORST damn luck with fandom bullshit. And that + existing confidence issues will absolutely feed into each other, even when objectively it's not deserved/warranted.

Thanks! I do love it. I feel like every year of my life I get more and more serious about photography.

Yeah, that's the problem tho. 1 hour on photography = 1 experience point. 1 hour on writing can = getting in my own head and watching Dexter instead. I am going to keep working on it, though. I am not going to obsess over where I might be if I hadn't been derailed by... various things. I figure if my brain wont cooperate, it's better to watch a show than to get frustrated at myself.

Yeah, I've had a lot of BS online and off. It's not one thing, it's a bunch. I need to reach a point where that all doesn't effect me the way it does.

I really want this, though. It feels like a bad choice to put so much effort into this, and I've been told that I am wasting my life putting effort into something I am so bad at, but I really do want this. So, I am going to keep chipping away at it.

Yeah, I can see the frustration in that math. (And feel the pain with writing. When something isn't going well, the time can feel totally wasted, and progress can be far from linear.)

Agreed that it's better to not let yourself get frustrated. As much as practice and consistency can be good things, not if it gets associated with negative feelings or having a bad time. Especially when you're combating external and past negativity, fostering it as a positive thing for yourself is probably one of the most important things you can do.
Aaaaand that sounds like crunchy self-help stuff, so I hope you know I'm being sincere!

Dealing with that many waves of bullshit is A Lot. And it's a whole lot easier to *want* it not to effect you than it is to actually get it not to. There are people who are just nasty, joyless people who want to do their best to spread their misery. There are also assholes who think the only way to make themselves and their work seem better is to be a dick to other people. And a dozen other species of douche. Knowing that doesn't make it not suck to be the target.

I think that devoting time and effort to something because you want it, and because that want has stayed consistent, makes it extremely worthwhile.

(Solidarity fistbump - I've gotten similar comments about writing clearly not being a thing I'm "naturally talented" at, so I shouldn't waste my time on it. Especially something as puerile as "mere fanfiction".)

Yeah, letting frustration build isn't good, so I don't. I need to build focus, but if I get too aaaarggggle about it, that's just not a good path. So, if i hit a certain point of stress while writing I just tap out.

Some people are nasty and I've been too slow to cut some real pieces of work out of my life, especially since the worst was irl friends with my roommate at the time.

I am determined, though. This is what I want. Wondering 'what if I'd tried' is way worse than failure.

'Naturally talented' is silly. A lot of people take for granted how hard writing is. We treat it like writing is a privilege of people who have time for it, rather than a learned skill that does take time and focus away from other things. I think in fandom we really take for granted how hard writing is. A lot of the talk I see around shows and also fanfic really treats it like it's not a learned skill.

Having that boundary is a good one - letting it get bad does no favors!

That's one of the worst things - feeling unable to cut people out when they should be due to connections they have with other people. Or realizing you waited longer than you should have. I'm glad that you've gotten rid of that person now!

And excellent. "What if" is definitely the worse feeling, so I'm glad you know it's what you want, and that you're going for it!

"Natural talent" is a silly concept, honestly. While some people may have an easier grasp of certain aspects of writing/storytelling (or any other endeavor), it's very much a learned/practiced/honed set of skills.
I do feel like writing gets unfairly dismissed as something easy than anyone could do - it's "just" writing down words, right? Anyone could do that!
Which is... not the case at all!

No one ever says "once I get the time to do it, I am going to draw my trio of faves curled up together with perfect, realistic anatomy and also fully colored with that lovely subscatter glow effect that is so popular in digital art. I've never drawn before, I but I need to just sit down and do it."

But we talk about fics, longfics and novels like that all the time. 'Everyone had a novel inside of them'. Also, a lot of discourse about fic like the writer didn't take enough time, rather than might be using fic to learn to write and better express certain ideas. I know I am repeating myself, but it's really talked about like a privilege rather than a skill.

Sorry, I am ranting a bit. But I do think this holds a lot of writers back and causes conversations about them to have odd framework.

Hey, I will cheerfully join in on this rant because RIGHT? FOR DAMN REAL.

People look at visual art and pretty much never think "oh, I could do exactly that with no real struggle, if I took an afternoon to do it."

But writing gets that attitude all the damn time! "Well, if I just spent some time, I could write a novel/a fic/etc. It's not like it's hard - it's just writing words down, and anyone can do that!"

(And it seems like there's a not-insignificant overlap between "I could do that, because it's easy and takes no skill" and people who are happy to criticize things for poor character development, rough dialogue, poor pacing, etc.
Criticism is fine! But it strikes me as super weirdly dissonant to have a ton of criticisms about how the individual aspects of a story didn't work for you while also claiming there's no skill involved in producing a story.)

I DO think this kind of thing certainly holds writers back. When you're struggling with getting something written, to get it done at all, or done to your satisfaction... it's hard to feel like you're "allowed" to be frustrated when there's an attitude of "but it's so easy!" And if you ARE having a hard time, it starts to feel like a personal failure instead of a normal struggle at a skilled craft. "If I'm having such a hard time with this thing that anyone could do, what's wrong with me?"

And people take a writer not developing part of a story as well like they don't care, or it's some sort of moral thing. But, they could just be learning? Or not even aware of how certain things they write are hitting other people?

One of the audiobooks I picked up was JMS's book on writing. He goes hard on the 'writers are born' and 'writing can't be taught' ideas, explicitly. I'll finish the book, but man some of it is just like... then why even write this book? He also seems to think that the overwhelming majority of 'real' writers are too in their own heads to even know how to make eye contact. I'll get something out of it, but this is definitely a book that needs to be read with skepticism and thinking about the writer in his context. He had early success and early 'having teachers believe in and nurture him'.

The book is basically more about JMS than anything else, at least so far.

Right? Like... if your writing doesn't meet their standard you are some kind of moral failure for not having... idk, tried hard enough?
But there are absolutely a lot of people who are writing fic as practice, learning how to craft the kinds of stories they want to write and read. There are also people who may write different fics with the express goal of working on one specific component of writing, and maybe they don't care that some other aspect is lacking. Or maybe people are writing for fun, and they don't want to agonize over making every single aspect of it perfect. And sometimes, quality is a subjective thing, and something one reader thinks was horribly executed is something another writer deeply connects with.

That does seem a bit like a weird choice... if you think writing can't be taught, what's the point of a book about writing? I'm not a fan of the attitude in general. I guess I agree that maybe there does have to be some bit of an inborn spark of interest (though whether that's born or nurtured is a different question, too.) I can maybe buy that "if you don't care about or have desire to be a writer, you can't be taught to want it". But... idk, sounds like he has a pretty narrow view of what he things All Writers Must Be Like.

I'm glad you'll still get something out of it! Even if his view is pretty narrow or tied a bit too closely to his own experience as something he either thinks must be universal OR doesn't unpack very well, I'm glad there's still some worthwhile material in there.

Yeah, more people need to think of fanfic in the correct context: it's mostly hobby work or people learning how to write. To learn to write, you need to put your work out there. It's hard, it's scary, but you can't grow if you don't. If you obsess over making your fic perfect, you aren't growing because you are not putting it out into the world.

I feel like JMS intuitively learned flow state at a young age, and conflates that with writing ability. People who get flow state intuitively usually don't know how to teach it. From the way he talks about things, that's what it feels like. I'm finishing it more out of stubbornness now. He says not every writer is exactly like him, but almost every writer is just like him. Kind of a scary viewpoint. I just looked up a few reviews of the book, most of them fawn over him for being a 'master'. One review said "So, the hard truth first: after reading the book, I realized I wasn’t a writer"

Maybe finishing this book isn't a good use of my time, but I am going to and then maybe reject every idea in it.

JMS's viewpoint is extreme. You are only a writer if you value it over food, shelter and human companionship. What is the point of writing if you value your own writing over... people? What is writing if not communicating ideas, emotions and unique aesthetics and joys to other people?

Agreed. And I don't mean that in a way disparaging to fic; I know that the "oh, fanfic is ONLY legitimate if it's practice for real writing" has been a snide attitude for years, too. But fanfic IS a great avenue to practice, whether you want to go a serious publishing route, or stay in the hobby realm. Writing and completing works is one of the only ways to truly practice and improve, and writing fic means that you can receive feedback, you can have people read it, in a way that can be difficult for original work.
And honestly, even if people AREN'T interested in seriously improving or working toward perfection, etc... that's also valid. Sometimes you just want an opportunity to write solely for the fun of it, and tell a story full of every cliche or shortcut-past-the-boring-difficult-bits that you could want. And that isn't WRONG. It may not be to everyone's taste, but that doesn't make it wrong.

Oof, that sounds like a struggle of a book to get through, tbh. (Though for me, stubbornness would kick in too, ha.) But yeah, I'm not a big fan of that sort of attitude. "Well I understand this thing, so you must either also understand it, or you're just not a ~real writer~ like me." Flow state is a cool thing, but it's not the same thing as talent, and a lack of it isn't the same thing as not being good at the thing.

It's actually really sad to hear that someone has read a book about writing (presumably out of interest and a hope for advice) and decided that that means they aren't a writer.
(And ugh, that's making me think of the "tough love" type asshole teachers who make it a point to try and tear students to shreds because "if I made you give up, you didn't want it badly enough".) Not that JMS is doing that deliberately, but it seems like there might be a hint of that attitude. "You're either a Very Serious Writer who Cares for Nothing Else, or you're... some sort of poseur, I guess."

But I agree - what's the point of writing if it isn't about expression and connection? I guess... great if you want to go full on ascetic and sit in a dimly lit single room, alone, eating plain cornflakes forever or something, so that you can pursue your perfect craft in solitude, free from connection to the world... but what's the point in that?
I find the writing that does the most for me, and really sticks with me, is writing by people who actually care very deeply for things. And a desire to share the enjoyment of a story, or the feelings I have about it, would be my main motive in wanting to share a work.

JMS takes the stance that is someone is a real writer that nothing can hold them back, which I think is a messed up idea. I was really into Babylon 5 when it was on. (He's the creator of that show and also solo wrote most of the scripts. IDK if you knew who he was.) And that show is coming back. The book is an interesting but honestly troubling glimpse into him. He talks about 'friends in your head feeling more real than real people'. He doesn't say he lives that way, but he brings up that concept a lot.

Or, well, the new Bab5 was in the works at the CW which is network that has lost it's ability to be profitable and is being sold. Oops. Honestly, even if it had gone forward... it would have been a CW show.

I just went to google info about that and saw that even though he says writing can't be taught, he is teaching it via Patreon at the 100/month level.

I think writing can be taught but most of the people doing maybe shouldn't be.

I feel like finding ways to clearly communicate ideas is a lot of what writing is. I can easily write something I'd understand, but making it clear to be who aren't me can be the trick.

I admit I googled him, because I didn't recognize the initials, haha. So I did find that he'd written Babylon 5 and Sense8 among other stuff.

But yeah, that is a messed up idea. It's one I see a lot - "if you really valued writing, you wouldn't let anything else take priority." But like... that's a pretty privileged view. Sorry that single parents have some other pressing responsibilities. Sorry that someone living alone below the poverty line is stuck working three non-writing jobs. Sorry that someone with a chronic illness or disability can't always manage the needed energy or focus.
So that sort of once again entrenches the idea that only financially secure, relatively privileged people (who are more likely to be white/male/cis/straight/able-bodied) even can be writers or would be "real writers". Again, probably not what he's at all TRYING to say, or not what he thinks he's trying to say, but kind of an "unintentional, maybe unexamined consequence of this assertion" thing.

It sounds like maybe he's got a lot of kind of unexamined issues of his own, heh.

Bad timing for the Bab5 reboot being a CW show. That would be... interesting, tbh. CW shows do have a very specific vibe. But I wonder if whatever happens with CW will end up keeping any of their in-progress or optioned or in-production series around, or if things will go in a different direction either by necessity or by choice.

And uh... biiiiig oof at "nothing can teach you to be a writer... except me for $100/month".

Lol, I think that might be the thing - the people who claim to teach you to write are the ones who really shouldn't be doing so, ha.

And absolutely - finding the way to communicate what you're imagining in a way that someone else can understand is the biggest challenge, imo. But without the desire to communicate it to someone else... then why bother?

Yeah, learning how to be a writer is a mess. I could write on that for ages. The one creative writing class I did in college? Not helpful. Most of the books on writing I've tried to read? Yikes.

I just got to the point in JMS's book where he says we shouldn't view other writers as competition. I thought he was going to talk about how we aren't in competition, but he said that most writers are too lazy to put the work in and anyone who polishes their work shines like a diamond. It's not that we aren't in competition, it's that other writers suck and aren't competition.

Yeah, I think he's got a lot of unexamined ideas and privilege. I may have been wrong. I don't think I am going to make it through this book.

I just feel bad though. Finding books and courses on writing to be useless makes me feel like it's a me problem. But then again, Overly Sarcastic Production's Trope Talks have been massively helpful to me. The way they broke down drawing on the tradition of storytelling versus drawing on real life experiences in one episode really helped shake up some of my thinking that needed to be shaken up.

[edit] Just got the point where he talks about other writing books. He read a bunch before writing this one. He also has a low opinion of writing books. lol I feel slightly better.

Edited Date: 2022-01-17 05:57 am (UTC)

I think a lot of it is that while there are constants with regards to writing, it's also a very personal process and experience for everyone. Even when things follow the same inspiration -> idea -> outlining/planning -> write the thing sequence, I do think those things look different for different people. There's also a sort of continuum between aspects of writing that are objective vs. subjective. Too many subjective aspects get treated like they're actually objective.
People have different experiences that they're going to draw on, different ways their brain works when it comes to what works best to produce work, and may also want very different things out of it. Wanting to be a Serious Literary Author is different than hoping to publish some genre novels via a big-6 publisher (or are we at big-5 now?), is different than wanting to complete some work with the intent of self-publishing and building up a catalog of work that sells as a side-gig, is different than wanting to improve your writing for your own enjoyment and maybe sharing some original work or fanfic that you hope finds an audience. Any of those goals may change HOW you want to approach your writing, as well as what's going to be "good" for your end goal.

We shouldn't treat other writers as competition... but boy is that an *interesting* reasoning behind it. While you probably have to have a healthy amount of confidence in your own work, the idea that you should assume everyone else's work just sucks isn't a great attitude to have either, lol.

Best of luck whether you make it all the way through or not! I'm stubborn and hate not finishing something once I start, even if I have to hate-watch/-read it... but I'm also trying to be better about not wasting my time once I know I'm not having a good time, lol.

I genuinely do not think it's a you problem. I've found individual pieces of advice that were truly helpful to me, or at least got me thinking about things in a way that was helpful. But a lot of classes or books have been far less so. Or there are a few bits that I like, and a lot that I don't.

I need to watch more of Trope Talks. I've watched a handful of OSP's videos, and I always really like them, but there's such a back-catalogue I feel like I have so much to catch up on! (Which is kind of great, but I haven't tackled it yet!)

Finally, something to agree with JMS on! That writing books aren't great! (Though I don't think his is going to the the one to change my mind, ha.)

Yeah, his reasoning for not seeing other writers as competition was disturbing, especially since he said it was based on his experiences working with other screenwriters in Hollywood. Also, that makes Hollywood sound like a meritocracy which it absolutely is not. Again with the unexamined ideas underpinning the things he says.

I'll spare you the blow by blows of the book, but you know how he talks about having no social skills towards the start? Boy howdy did he give some anecdotes that illustrate that pretty starkly.

I think he's broadly in the category of 'too oblivious to realize how oblivious he is'. He thinks 99% of writers are just like him in dozens of ways and he's just wrong. He's the Hollywood insider not me, but I am pretty confident here.

Yeah, all writers do have their own process. I am still hoping to mine some good advice from this. I listen while I am cleaning or doing a bit of Map Completion in Guild Wars 2, so it's not taking away from writing time. I am going to try a few more writing books after and, well, whether they are helpful or not I'll have at least thoroughly investigated that avenue.

Yeah, definitely sounds like more unexamined implications. I'd love if Hollywood or publishing as a whole was a meritocracy... but it definitely isn't.

Lol, it's a bit funny to me that he seems to just be showing off that he lacks social skills, haha. That doesn't necessarily surprise me, considering just the handful of things you've said about the book.

Seems likely that he is, in fact, the one mistaken about how universal his experiences and feelings etc. are. A lot of people are pretty oblivious about that kind of thing, and it definitely sounds like he is to an extreme.

Even if a lot of the advice can be discarded, I hope there are some good bits in there! And same with future writing books as well... I don't think that any writing advice book could truly be 100% applicable to anyone other than its author... but pieces might be! As long as you're listening with a healthy degree of skepticism, and aren't going to decide that a bit of advice you dislike means you "just can't be a writer ever", then I hope it's a helpful thing.

He's a writer who has made an impact on me. Listening to this is sort of helping me unpack certain ideas about writing. I am sure I heard quotes from him at some point or picked up ideas from him during the time I was deeply into Babylon 5.

I've never read a book or article from Mercedes Lackey on writing, but she has definitely had an impact on my journey. If she did write a book on writing, I'd read it more to just sort of unpack all that.

I'm halfway through.... and he's talking about winning argument on twitter ISTG....

It's not all bad, but man, overall it paints a sad and terrible picture of a writer I used to idolize and many still do. I've know people whose living room is dominated by a bookcase with every script for Bab5 printed out, annotated versions in bound form and also all his other work.

I have also never seen anything Mercedes Lackey has written about writing... that would be quite a Thing, I bet. She's definitely one that I'd class as a major influence on my ideas about writing and storytelling. (And boy is that one to unpack, haha. I think you've joked about the Mercedes Lackey fan support group, ha.)

Holy hell. Winning arguments on twitter brag. Amazing.

It does sound like it sort of paints him in a sad light, and it's almost extra sad that he doesn't seem to recognize that. (Though it sounds like his lack of awareness is something of a running theme.)

In the case of a person like that... I feel like you might learn more from just studying the work they've produced rather than who they are as a person or what they *think* goes into being a Real Writer (TM). When they've produced work you love, finding what it is you love about that work, and why it worked so well in both objective and subjective ways may be the route that's more helpful.

I do feel like a lot of fandom wants to unpack being raised on Mercedes Lackey. I've mentioned her a few times on discord only for the channel to briefly become a support group.

I do also break down canons I've liked. I am not going to spend a lot of time chasing advice from authors. Honestly, taking it too seriously has not served me well in the past. Speaking of which...

Mercedes Lackey and other authors of her time/vibe denying having done any writing before age 30 and talking about how if they *had* written and put it out there before getting life experience did have an impact on my life plans. Turns out, they were all trying to have having been fanficcers. So many articles claiming that they just sat down around age 30 and spun out that first novel from ~life experience~ when in reality they had been prolific ficcers and part of tight knit writing groups.

I mean, I didn't try to follow that exactly but I was pissed when I realized they had all been really misrepresenting how they get started. If you want to be anything, looking at how others did it is how a lot of people find the path. Turns out, the main paths were being really in the loop with certain parts of the fantasy convention scene.

Some of them talking like if they had written as a teen or younger 20 something they would have sabotaged their chances.

Anyway, exhibit #59973 as to why learning to write can be a mess. All your faves are trying to hide their smutfics.

Yeah, I think a LOT of people grew up with Mercedes Lackey and have now hit an age where they recognize how many things in her works weren't actually that great... while also being torn about how meaningful and needed and even life-saving her work was when they were young. (To say nothing of the quality of her current work. The last book I tried by her was... extremely not good imo.)

Taking it too seriously I think is a BIG detriment to a lot of people, so wise decision!

Huh. I had sort of forgotten about that... how often authors of the romantic fantasy/sword-and-sorcery type genres at the time claimed to have only started writing as adults, when they just magically started churning out often-prolific, publishable work. When yeah, a bunch had been active in fan circles before that, or zine spaces, etc. I guess "well, I actually practiced a lot in informal circles, and know that some of my early work wasn't that great, but I worked at improving over a decade or more" doesn't sound as ~cool~ as "I just finally Became A Fully-Formed Writer because of my Life Experience".

It is frustrating that a lot of that is really misleading. Idk if they meant it to be, or just thought that it was a better way to portray themselves at a time when fan-writing was a pretty niche and formally-looked-down-upon thing. (Extra frustrating though, when some of those same genre writers had some pretty negative things to say about fanfiction.)
I guess for a time, admitting you wrote kinda mediocre stuff when you were younger WOULD be an embarrassment, because it went against that kind of cultivated mythology of the "Born Writer".

Lmao, that's the damn truth. The liars. :P

I always assumed they lied deliberately to keep people from looking for their early work. People would have. Fans aren't always great with boundaries. I remember ML later saying that she'd been in trouble with her publishers if certain things has been discovered. I could be wrong, but I also know that ML got seriously harassed over having an unpublished Diana Tregarde novel for a while. Some people were very intense and wanted it.

It sucks because if you want to do A Profession, looking to the people who do it and how they got there makes sense. But it's not like I went 'okay, no writing until I am 30!' or anything. I didn't follow it as a path, but it did influence me. I don't blame her or anyone else. They were just trying to keep their jobs.

And anyway I had an undiagnosed condition giving me severe brain fog until I was about 29/30 anyway, sooo.... kinda makes it all moot. I didn't really write OR have the life experiences I'd planned to have.

That's a fair point. There were a LOT of issues with boundaries when it came to ML's work, I do remember. If I recall, the Diana Tregarde stuff was even worse... I seem to remember something about someone who basically started stalking her, because they believed (or claimed to believe) that the "Guardians" as mentioned in the series were real. It sounded pretty intense and disturbing.

I do understand people trying to keep their own jobs and avoid harassment, and I can't fault anyone for trying to do so. But it is frustrating that it kind of has added to a broader mythology of the "born author" who can just start creating publishable work with no earlier practice or struggle or missteps. Because the unintended implication is that if you CAN'T just create fully-realized, publish-ready work, then you must not be a "real writer."

There's probably more to unpack about that sort of mentality than I've ever really done, haha. Because same - while I didn't decide "oh, I just won't even try to write until I hit 30!", I know I did struggle in my late teens and 20s with the idea that if I DID try to write, it would be doomed to be terrible, and an embarrassment, and I'd later regret having written it, so why do so?

Solidarity fistbump. For me, rather than a physical thing, it was the probable ADHD diagnosis of a few years ago, but it certainly explained some of the things I've struggled with since I was a kid. Now I've finally been able to address some of the things that I had felt incapable of doing for decades.

Yeah, it really feeds into the 'writers are born, not made' mentality.

One thing all the books I've read agree on is that successful writers need to 'lower the ladder' to help the next set along. In fantasy spaces, at least the type of fantasy I was into, that didn't happen. The ways in were very gatekept and a lot of false info put out. Again, I don't blame them, but that happening does create an impact.

I'm glad you've gotten a handle on that! It can make a ridiculous difference, can't it?

Definitely a mentality that's had too much traction, and too many people still buy into, imo.

Oof, yeah. Definitely didn't have a lot of mentorship going on, and certainly not much broad support of younger folks who hoped to become writers. Again, I know that there were some serious boundary issues that I'm sure made it hard for some of the big names to feel comfortable seeming too approachable... But the gatekeeping was very overt in a lot of ways.
I kind of wonder how the fantasy and sci-fi writing scenes now would be different if there had been that "lowering of the ladder". There's definitely a broader, more diverse sff field right now, with a lot of fantastic authors. But I wonder in what ways it would look different if there hadn't been quite such a dramatic gap between "generations".

It really can make a huge difference, just knowing that there is a cause for the issues and some things that you can do to help.

There does seem to be a weird break in fantasy around the early 2000s and a lot of the up and comers weren't interesting to a lot of established fans, at least from what I've seen. I don't know enough about the fantasy book market, because I went from a voracious consumer to pretty much... not. I've heard a lot of people say the same.

I really don't have the perspective to get meta about all of that, but it really feels like break in mentoring had an effect. There is probably something interesting to be explored there, by someone more plugged in than me.

I likely have some wrong ideas about the business as a whole from all of that. How would someone with no ~~baggage~~ preconceived ideas about becoming a writer approach things?

I love a lot of more current/modern fantasy, but it very much has a different general vibe from the stuff I grew up reading. And honestly, it seems like a lot of the "romantic fantasy" like ML's Valdemar series is pretty much nonexistent. I feel like anything that did try to capture that sort of feel and vibe would come across as very retro and almost... quaint?
I don't want to say that current fantasy is "darker", exactly, because plenty of more classic stuff got dark as hell. I'm not sure I can articulate what I mean.

It seems like there is a big divide... even for myself, while I like a lot of new stuff, I feel like I'm drawn more to specific works/series/authors than the genre as a whole. And some of the stuff that does apparently "define" the genre now, like Game of Thrones, has zero appeal to me.
Then again, other people have told me they loved sf/f in the 80s and 90s, but don't read anything sf/f anymore because they feel like it's all too derivative, and all feels the same as what they've seen before... and I personally felt like the genre conventions were a LOT more same-y then as opposed to now!

I think I'm in the same boat as you though, I don't know enough about it to really analyze it. I DON'T read widely in the genre, even as it's the vast bulk of what I DO read, and certainly wouldn't count as a voracious consumer these days either.

But it doesn't seem like a stretch to think that the gap in mentorship has something to do with how drastically the standard feel of the genre has changed. Sounds like an intriguing thesis/op-ed/media-criticism video series for someone who knows a lot more about it, haha.

True... I feel like at this point it's almost impossible to untangle all the ~~baggage~~ preconceived ideas that we've all got hanging around. It would be interesting to know how a true outsider might approach it. (Though I guess it depends on what baggage they have from elsewhere...)

It would never have occurred to me to follow the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America on twitter, but a person new to wanting to try go write fantasy probably would so I am.

I know pretty much nothing about the modern fantasy scene. In fandom people always push YA fantasy, which I can't stand. I have tried it and nope. I know I don't like Sanderson and a few other writers. I'd be interested to take a look, but my book plate is full for a while.

Also, a lot of Mercedes Lackey and co writers had a lot of queer characters and the good enclaves of people always had a deep philosophy of acceptance. That is at least part of what I was looking for and didn't find in new authors. Someone pointed out in an article on the coming coming Heralds of Valdemar TV series that Vanyel was one of the first and remains one of the very few queer main characters in fantasy. I tried to disprove this claim and also posted it a few places expecting it to be countered, and it was.

(I occasionally google about that show, but I would be very unsurprised to see if it becomes vaporware)

In the more recent fantasy or YA books 'with diversity' that I've read. Queer characters are often the C character in a story these days. Not the main, not the main's foil, lieutenant or B character, but is there. There is a deep difference between having characters who have a non-heteronormative view of life and rich relationships with queer characters and having a cardboard cut out in the background. But again, I can only speak to the books I tried. I know in the early 2000s I read some fantasy that was completely devoid of anything queer, not even a background cardboard cut out, and I felt alienated by it.

Not just ML, but also Ellen Kushner, Ellen Guon, Lynn Flewlling, Rosemary Edghill... and also a few dozen more. Even in books without queer characters there was a vibe to them. I used to have tons of books, but most of what I kept from that era was her or Rosemary Edghill. I slimmed down the collection a ton, and one author who did a lot of cross overs I purged completely for some reason. (MZB) I know I am leaving out a lot of names, but yeah, ML had the biggest impact on me. I don't regret having massively downsized the collection, but I wish I had kept notes or something on the authors of the era. Like I can picture a few covers, but don't remember the author or title.

Huh, that's a good thought. I occasionally read something from SFFWA, but haven't ever closely followed them. But yeah, that is probably a reasonable thing to do.

I haven't read Sanderson, though his stuff has been rec'd to me over and over. It sounds like I might like it, so I'll probably give it a try eventually. I DO get pretty tired of seeing YA fantasy rec'd as a standard... I mostly don't care for the general vibe and tone of YA. While there's probably better YA out there than the stuff I've read, it's just not my favorite.

I've definitely felt alienated by works that featured absolutely zero queer anything, like it just wasn't even a thing in the slightest. I think that is one pretty decent thing that came out of being as steeped as I was in ML's stuff when I was a young teen. As problematic as bits of it were, as badly as some of her queer characters later were treated, they were THERE, and they led me to *expect* that queer characters should be present.
I know I read other authors that wrote similar things at similar times, but I remember pretty few of them specifically. I checked a lot out from the library, or borrowed them off my mom's bookshelves.

For more modern fantasy that I can think of at the moment with not-insignificant queer characters... (not that you were looking for recs)
The Broken Earth trilogy has multiple side characters that are queer and significant to the plot and to the main characters. The books themselves are pretty heavy, though - the plot revolves very heavily around systems of oppression. And it's kind of fantasy/sci-fi cusp, during an apocalypse of the world's own making.

The Shades of Magic trilogy has a m/m B romance, but not until the second and third books. One of the characters involved in that B romance is prominent in the first book, but the love interest doesn't show up until book two.
One of the protagonists/participants in the A romance is arguably genderqueer - I read her that way when I first read the books, and the author has mentioned that she's intended that way, but it's not 100% explicit on the page if I recall.
(As a sidenote, this trilogy has one of the best book threes I've read, imo.)

The Six of Crows duology is I guess marketed as YA, so it may not be of interest, but I honestly didn't think it felt like YA. The m/m couple get more page time in book 2, but both characters are pretty significant in the first as well. (Also, a fun heist!)
The characters and plot bits snagged from this duology were definitely my favorite parts of the Shadow and Bone Netflix series, and we'll see what they do with introducing the second part of that m/m couple in season two, since they just announced the casting.

I'd still rec the Captive Prince trilogy. It's billed pretty much just as romance, which is fair, but it's a fantasy setting, though not a magical one. It's got a pretty wide fandom, but also a vocal hate-dom, largely because it's enemies-to-lovers that does NOT go light on the enemy part at the start. (This series has what I think is maybe the best book two I've ever read in a trilogy.)

In much "fluffier" territory - The House in the Cerulean Sea was sweet. It's more of a modern fantasy, but definitely not *urban* fantasy. It's more the "warm cozy blanket" vibe, I think.

I keep hearing good things about A Conspiracy of Truths (and its sequel), but haven't read it yet - it's on my tbr list hopefully for this year.

Not to spew a bunch of potential recs right when you said your book plate is full, ha. And I know you have a pretty hit or miss experience with rec lists anyway.
It just got me thinking about more modern fantasy that has decent queer characters, because... yeah, a lot have those cardboard cutout background characters that just feel irrelevant, and that's not what I want out of the fantasy I read.

Diana L Paxon! I remembered another as I hit post.

For some of these authors, even if they didn't have queer characters the stories and the jokes makes by characters weren't heteronormative. I think you can have queer friendly story telling even with (presumably) het characters and heteronormative storytelling and jokes with queer characters, if that makes sense. The whole vibe is different when you have a broader world view.

I'll note the reccs! It's better to have recc lists than try to wrestle with amazon or something. And who knows how fast some of these books will hit my DNF pile. I forced myself to read more Confessions of a Fox if I was going to post about it. I wanted to toss it after the first page of the first chapter.

There definitely, to me, seems like a very different feeling in worlds and works that have queer-friendly storytelling (even if the characters are mostly straight and cis) vs. ones that feel hostile to (or like they simply ignore) queer characters or stories. I think it does come from the author having a broader worldview, and incorporating that into their work. Sometimes it's just in small ways that language is used, and a general tone.

I hate the amazon algorithm for "recommendations". It's weighed SO heavily toward promoted/"sponsored" suggestions. And I feel like it clearly does not understand what aspects of something appealed to me, lol. Just because I bought a couple queer poly romance ebooks, I do not need 500 recommendations for contemporary het romance, lol.

I hope that not too many of them hit the DNF pile, but if they deserve it, they deserve it. Life is too short for bad books.

I feel bad not finishing things, like I'm the problem. But in reality there is a lot of content out there and it's just harder to navigate than it used to be. That copper Baen spine used to mean 'might be good, might be weak, will at least be readable and wont piss me off'.

Amazon and Audible reccs are useless to me these days, which is a shame.

I know the feeling. I'm a completionist, and I feel bad leaving things unfinished. But... there's just *so much.* I've made peace (at least somewhat!) with the idea that hey, putting my limited time and energy into something that I'm not enjoying and isn't helping me in any way isn't worthwhile. I could devote that time and energy to something that DOESN'T suck, haha

Definitely feel you on how much harder it feels to navigate. It's hard to even know where to start with things... I think the positives of it being a much wider field with more choices available outweigh the negatives... but I think the difficulty in finding the *right* work is one of those negatives.

Once again with the "not to blame capitalism for everything, but..." ugh, Amazon recs should be good. Once upon a time, they seemed to be at least okay? For the creepy levels of data collection they do, and the amount of info they have access to, there's frankly no reason for their recs to be so shitty, except that it's geared toward getting eyes on what they want eyes on/what's been sponsored/what someone has paid to boost in the algorithm.
Like... the data collection and storing of info would still be creepy/invasive/offputting... but at least I'd get something out of it, lmao.

It's so frustrating that with all this lack of data privacy, my reccs and also my ads are terrible. Facebook wants to sell me NFTs and Chick-Fil-A!

It is better to have more choice, but it's also no longer possible to be a paid book reviewer running a blog online. IDK, maybe some people do it, but it's mostly disappeared. Some day I'll get a goodreads account and see if that helps. I've been told a bunch of time that it doesn't, but *shrug*

Right? Like... at least give me the potentially *useful* part of this data-mining hellscape. But oh no... I get banner ads for the place I work. And also Chick-fil-a. WTF?

Very true. I don't want to say that NO ONE makes a living as a book reviewer, because I'm sure some people do, but that definitely seems like a thing that has mostly disappeared. I have a goodreads account that I've never used. I guess I should - but since it's owned by Amazon, I sort of feel like it's going to make the same wrong algorithmic assumptions about what I want, ha.

I did manga reviews for a a few years. It was a decent side hustle. Browsing other people's links lists used to be a big things, then the sites like del.icio.us went away and all that infrastructure is gone. It just feels like a missing part of the ecoystem, or if it's there I am looking in the wrong places ... list asking for book reccs at a slash con and winding up with reccs like A Companion To Wolves

That's cool! I didn't know you used to do that.

You're right about the loss of infrastructure. There are people who write reviews on tumblr or the like, but I've never seen any sort of review *community* there or anything. There are probably plenty of disparate wordpress or blogger blogs out there focused on reviews, but I feel like it's hard to *find* those sorts of things. (Or maybe I just don't know where to look, too.) People may link to reviews on FB or Twitter... but if I don't already follow them, then I'm not going to see that (even in a world where I used FB or twitter). There are people who review things on youtube, but if you don't want to do videos/don't have the ability to do fun production-y things/don't review pretty popular works/don't have a particular schtick that appeals to people, I can't imagine getting much traction.

And oof. Yeah. Bad reccs are worse than no reccs.

It really does feel like a missing piece of the ecosystem.

leverage by gaslight would be... victorian leverage? neat! not that i have any suggestions for what to do with your worldbuilding, but the worldbuilding itself sounds like it could really cool.

Yeah, late Victorian when inter-city travel is suddenly possible and the telegraph is taking of. The world got a whole lot smaller and faster then :)

There's definitely something to working on a type of project for which you have concrete actions and very tangible results. I can definitely see why photography feels more rewarding! (And you have such fabulous photography too.)

I do hope you're able to work on the writing projects and art projets you have planned! The original paranormal investigations fic series particularly piques my interest :D

Thank you! I enjoy photography a lot and I feel like every year I am more and more serious about it.

I really want to write a paranormal series. I've been iterating on the ideas for a while.

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