Brain Full...

[olivermoss]

* So I saw that Strange Aeons said she was doing a video on Hobbit fandom, then woke up the next day to a 2 hour Bit of Earth video and man, that was a lot. It's good to have people like her doing videos on this stuff, especially since kinning has been making such a resurgence in fandom.

* Someone who does D&D lore videos decided that Githyanki are meant to be a reference to Americans... for reasons that only make sense if you mix up the two sides in our civil war and fail to understand the difference in how British people use the term Yankee and how Americans use the term Yankee. And I say this as a Yankee, because I am from New England and by and in large only we call ourselves Yankees. I grew up calling New England culture and art and craft styles Yankee. I am very annoyed about this. Some people need to focus more on research and less on 'cracking the code'.

* I already knew a bunch about the Gith going into BG3, but a good lore video would be nice.

* One day I am going to crack and make a podcast no one will ever listen to where I go on about things. It will be things no one cares about, but it will be well researched.

* Glimpses of blue sky are nice.

Comments

[muccamukk]

I haven't quite bucked up to the extent where I can handle two hours on that fucker, but I am hoping to see it at some point. I was in that fandom at the time, but missed a lot of the details, and they got so distorted later. She seems like a reasonable explainer though.

[olivermoss]

I was in Tolkien fandom and living in Portland at the time and was very out of the loop despite having been to a BoE event. Having put all the pieces together a few years ago was very odd, especially since the events cast a long shadow on spaces I was in, but just no one talked about it.

Locally, a lot of people who run events and stuff don't think of Andy as 'cult leader' they think of him as 'that person who caused roommates to do a murder suicide'. Andy was also at Orycon and in that scene at a point.

[muccamukk]

I had some California friends get scammed out of money, and who were pissed off about him, and sort of listed his aliases along with a DNI warning, but didn't hear more of the story for years. I think when he hit... Harry Potter? Maybe? it was before SPN? people started writing PSAs on him.

[olivermoss]

I had a local friend who would rant about Victoria Bitters, but when I asked for context they thought I was being drama seeking that I had to know. She was all 'everyone knows, don't be like that'. I wish I was still in contact with her because now I could at least track what the rants were about.

For me it wasn't until a video by... I think it was Atrocity Guide and the following conversations on some discords I was on that several things clicked together for me and that was all very weird.

[mistressofmuses]

Someone else linked to that video, and I stuck it in my watch later. Because hoo boy was that a really... just so much in fandom. So much.

Look, anything can become super fascinating when it's well-researched.

Blue sky!

[olivermoss]

That was a lot, yeah. And it sounds like there will be a part 2 covering his HP era.

I know he popped up briefly in Critical Role fandom, but got quickly ousted. I still don't know if I want to know how his shtick would work with a canon that's... other people's D&D characters...

[mistressofmuses]

It's hard to tell if the LotR era or the HP era was the more batshit. How do you compare cults?

Yeah, he tried for a while to drum up followers and attention in SPN, but didn't get the same traction he'd gotten elsewhere. People suspected he was maybe going to try in MCU spaces, as he started doing a lot of the "I totally AM THIS CHARACTER, I somehow channeled his experiences into my real life, and you guys it's shocking to me too" thing, but it didn't last. CR fandom bounced him and make it very clear they didn't want him there, fortunately. (Though yeah, how would he try to take over someone else's D&D character?)

I guess he was on a cosplay reality show for a brief bit?

Now he mostly just tries to get attention on twitter, but at least he doesn't seem to be starting any new cults.

I did a deep dive into the stuff about him just a couple years ago after finally realizing that the Bit of Earth scam/cult leader was the same guy as the HP fanfic cult guy, because I had NOT previously connected the two.

[olivermoss]

Yeah, connections... I am debating whether to inflict a deep dive on myself because...

* I am reasonably sure I knew Andy from the Orycon scene. That was back in the days when both the Space Elevator and the We Are Totally Going TO Build A Mech groups had panels there and were living off of fundraising from congoers who believed in their BS.

* I was at a BoE event.

* The idea that ( trans men / masc present AFAB people ) are delusional slashers who lost themselves in their own fiction was a very strong held idea in geek spaces here back in the '00s to mid '10s and how often I ran into it gives me anxiety to this day.

* I had a friend here for a few years who used to rant and rant about a person named 'VB'. When I asked for context they got upset with me, assuming I was being gossipy or lurid or something because 'everybody knows'. She assumed I knew and took every request I had for context as me being weird / inappropriate. I didn't even know she was saying VB, I thought she was saying 'Phoebe', which is why I asked in a bunch of online places who is this infamous fandom person from Portland called Phoebe? The friend in question had trauma from whatever happened. She also used to highly emphasize calling VB 'she'. Now, emphasizing names/pronouns when talking about someone who are angry at isn't odd, so I didn't pick up on what was going on there but now... hoo boy. Anyway, said person fell off the face off the earth and I think left fandom entirely, cutting off all fandom friends, so I can't like ask or hear the rant again with context, but yeah... now I know what the rants where in reference to.

Also he went briefly mega viral on tumblr a few months ago, but fortunately that led to a backlash where a lot of people found out about him.

[mistressofmuses]

Hoo boy. I'm sorry you likely have at least a vague connection to him! (I was at least several degrees of separation.)

Unfortunately, a whole lot of the Andy stuff is wrapped up in really hideous transphobia, though I'm glad most of the people who've covered it most in-depth more recently (including his ex, and a couple dedicated bloggers who put together very meticulous timelines) have been extremely fast to shut down transphobic shit about him.

And oh shit. Yeah, that adds some context to the rants from the old friend. Eesh. (Though I have to say the "wait, who the fuck is this infamous Phoebe?" strikes me as pretty funny. Because yeah, why would you assume "VB" meant anything without context?)

Ugh, I remember when the screenshots of that twitter post were circulating. I had to restrain myself from sending PMs every damn time it was reblogged, but fortunately the responses pointing out his history took over pretty fast.

[olivermoss]

That comment was a mess, let me try to put it a little less like a flailing muppet.

I don't blame Andy for the transphobia in my area, but his actions shaped it and not knowing what was shaping it freaked me out. People were specifically on guard about AFAB fannish people who dressed like male characters or identified with male characters, especially slashers. Also, there were a lot of weird comments that baffled me and when I tried to reach out online and make sense of it people were very 'that makes no sense, are you sure you aren't doing something to provoke these reactions?' And, them also not having context those reactions were not out of line. It was also very confusing and... honestly haunted. The original horror novel I've working on is me working out that 'I'm in the shadow of something and don't know it' feeling.

Also, event organizers put my wallet name on blast whenever I tried to use a gender neutral name. One even told me she was doing it 'for my own good' and I was very WTF? Again, trying to ask online about why they'd react that way lead people to be very 'that makes no sense, are you sure this isn't a you thing?' People at Ory went by names like Phenix or Dragon or Penguin of Doom and if you didn't respect chosen names you'd get warned or kicked. Penguin is Doom is not me putting in a meme for comedic effect, that was the actual chosen name of someone who lead registration and even finding her name odd would get people growly with you. But me going by a gender neutral name like Robin would get me put on blast. And the people who did so absolutely knew Andy and would put out PSAs about Tentmoot and other events to warn people not to go. Between that and on my ranty former friend, it was like arriving in the aftermath of an disaster and everyone is pretending it didn't happen, and there's a terrible danger but no one will tell me what, but presenting as masc seems to be triggering people around me.

Okay, that wasn't shorter but hopefully more coherent. Sorry if it's a bit much.

[mistressofmuses]

The comment wasn't that much of a mess!

This makes me think of the "missing stair" phenomenon. It's not *quite* that in the usual sense, but it seems like there's some similarity... so many people had this shared context and history for why his presence had made people suspicious and on-edge... yet there was also this huge unwillingness to talk about what had happened, so... missing stair. You don't know it's a problem until you try to take a step, and you fall through.
It's not his fault that transphobia exists in geek spaces, but it's also inescapable that the whole situation caused an awful lot of splash damage.

(It also bumped up against the transphobic attitude of "trans men are just confused girls with internalized misogyny, and it's because of all that damn gay fanfiction" that was way too prevalent in fandom anyway, and still won't go the fuck away.)

I can see the idea of being haunted by a thing that you weren't a part of, a thing you haven't been given the chance to understand, but that's coloring your own experiences in a way that you also can't escape, being a very compelling thing to explore in horror. Because that IS a horror.

You being harassed for wanting a gender-neutral name is shit, and I'm sorry you dealt with that. (Yet another manifestation of the way that being gender-nonconforming gets you weirdly policed in ways that people who are more conforming don't face. It sucks.) But especially a place that was otherwise very much in favor of chosen names and enforcing the need to respect them... then refusing to respect yours is deeply shitty.
No one other than Andy should be punished for the shit that he did, and the fact that way too many spaces have used that whole situation as a way to lash out at unrelated people is not okay. (Whether they've done it on purpose or because they thought they were protecting themselves really doesn't matter. It's still not okay.)

[olivermoss]

Yeah, it does have things in common with missing stair. Not quite the same, but there is a pool of knowledge the insiders know and it hurts everyone not in the know. It's so weird when there's a monster, no one will tell you about it and yet... you remind people of it.

It wasn't until I finished the beat sheet for the novel that I realize what I was writing and why it made sense to me to structure things that way. I am not sure if realizing that was helpful or not in terms of making progress on my draft.

The double standard was so baffling, and when I talked about it most people thought I was making it up or something. I wasn't even trying to go by male-name McBeardyFace or anything, it should have been totally unremarkable... but people were looking out for people like me as possible threats.

I'm glad it's being well covered now, but man it took so long.

[mistressofmuses]

It isn't *quite* the same thing, but it feels like a similar impact. Being unaware of it puts you in danger of a lot of things, but in this case no one was at all willing to warn you about it. (They more act like there is no missing stair at all, and anyone who does want to know why there's a stair missing must be trying to start architectural drama.)
I'm reaching with the metaphor at this point, but.

That's a heavy, but relevant theme to explore. Though I'm sorry if it wasn't helpful to actually get it written. Hopefully, that recognition of the theme might ultimately be beneficial when to comes to having a strong throughline to tie to, but... I can also understand that connection making it a little more fraught, too.

Look, I know "gaslighting" is one of the words we really need to put up on the high shelf out of reach of the people who keep misusing it, but... That's exactly what it is, for you to have had that sort of double standard thing happening, or this weird judgement that no one would explain, and then for everyone ELSE to go "hmmm, that sounds weird, are you SURE that's happening?"

I am glad that more people know about it now, but it really did take a long time. I remember reading Abby's blog when she came forward about the time she spent with him, but then there was relatively little about any of the rest of it. Even having read her blog, I *still* made no connection to the HP fandom stuff. I'd even followed him on tumblr at one point! I never read his fic or talked to him, but I think I saw some response he made to someone else and found it interesting. (Though then he deleted and disappeared shortly after that, and it wasn't until years later that I discovered the why and who he was.)

[olivermoss]

Considering Portland's rep as being a good place for queer and/or GNC people and geek places tending to be better than mainstream places, I get why people were skeptical about what I said. This pervasive idea that Portland is gender utopia is one I've banged my head against a few times. Also, I once posted asking about finding dating partners on a certain website and had that I was in Portland set to public and woke up to literally hundreds of comments bashing me because I lived in Portland and it was people who love elsewhere who have problems and they were all trying to theory craft what sort of damage I must have to have dating problems in Portland of all places.

Portland is weird, but a lot of people are very weird about Portland. ... and well I moved here hoping for certain thing so maybe I can't talk. But I run into even IRL from the recent queer transplants who seem to think having moved here means they made it, no more problems, journey over. I am fairly sure I wasn't that naive.

So many people were dead set on keeping what happened quiet like that was going to lessen the impact, but I think it made it way worse. Certainly did for me, but I don't think just me. These silences make the world feel even scarier than it is. You know there is danger, but what the heck is it? Also, yeah, you can't figure out the world around or why people act like they do.

Yeah, that whole Crafty Cat Dad twitter to tumblr thing got shut down fast, but HOW mega viral it went before it did was just scary. To this day, he knows what threads to pull, what people really, really want to hear.

[mistressofmuses]

I know the discrepancy between "how everyone THINKS Portland is" and "how Portland actually is" is a huge issue that you've had to deal with pretty continually. I know it's considered one of the progressive utopias of the nation, but... it's still a city, full of actual people, and that means the potential for all the same problems that can happen anywhere else. (Even if it has more of a "leftist infighting" vibe to it.) Is that preferable to a lot of areas in the country that may have a more hostile political or social scape? Sure! But is that the same thing as "problem-free utopia as long as you get here?" Probably not so much.

But then people do get weird about it... I know you've talked about it, and I've seen it elsewhere, but there's the attitude that if you DO talk about Portland as anything less than a utopia, then you're obviously some horrible naysayer trying to tear the community apart or something.
And also, that "um, it must be YOUR fault, and YOU must be the problem" thing is such garbage. There are countless reasons someone might have a hard time connecting with an in-person dating scene that have nothing to do with anyone involved being "bad."

I definitely think that trying to keep quiet about a situation like the one with Andy is never a good idea. Particularly when the sort of dark cloud left by the whole series of events was still hanging over everything, and was having a measurable impact on people who were unaware.
I know a lot of people just sort of hoped the whole thing would go away, that everyone would move on, but... A) they were still holding other people to an invisible standard, so no one really could move on, and B) pretending the thing never happened winds up shielding perpetrators.
Because he DID go on to functionally start a SECOND fucking cult, with suspicion that it could have been another two or three more if he'd been able to get the foothold.

He very clearly still knows exactly the sorts of sentiments that gain traction, the sorts of statements that people like to hear and pass on. He IS genuinely good at evoking certain emotions and such through his writing, and he successfully uses that to be manipulative. (Despite his insistence that he has no desire for any kind of online attention or following any more.)
I mean, I think it was something similar to that (though years ago) that got me to follow his "strangerthanfiction" tumblr. I hadn't ever heard of his HP fic at the time, but he wrote some social-justice-y posts that were pretty popular, and I likely followed him for one of those. Yet I had zero idea that he was the same person from the LotR stuff, despite actually having heard about that whole thing.
I'm *glad* that his viral twitter thread got shut down the way it did... but it had already gotten a TON of traction at that point. If people continued insisting that we just don't talk about him or anything he's done and just ignore it... well, I think he'd have a much easier time finding bigger, sympathetic followings, and that's how he gets his "inner circle" cult shit to happen.

[olivermoss]

We have leftist infighting and also leftist grifting and lots of weird fringe groups using leftist buzzwords as cover. It's a mess!

And yeah, people do act like I am harming the community or trying to tear something down whenever I talk about problems here, so I mostly don't in online spaces. If people want to think we're Rivendell or some stuff that isn't my problem. And also the dating scene here is really complicated with how many people move to Portland for a year to see if they really are [identity]. A lot of people come, want support, want to date, and then want to leave.

The silence around Andy did a lot of damage. I think this is true of a lot of things people try to keep on the down low. I mean, you can't really make them invisible. They still happened, reality is still here and people have to live in it.

My first year as a con board member we were aware of an assault that didn't happen at the con so we could have swept away being associated with it, but we didn't. We notified membership that an assault happened just off-site and to be aware that there might be people looking to mingle with the cosplayers outside of where we can enforce rules. And you know what, that built trust. I didn't want assault, especially that kind, associated with our event that we put so much of our lives into. But the end result was that our community was safer for it. I know some people who talk like keeping it a secret was somehow good, like it kept the ... problem from spreading? But really, it was people worried how something happening in fandom would reflect on them and they left real people vulnerable and hurting to protect themselves.

And yeah, it is scary how effective he can be.

[mistressofmuses]

Oh god, the grifting! The misuse of terminology! (The misuse of buzzwords to argue nonsense and garbage positions is top 10 things I cannot fucking stand, lol.)

I understand how a lot of communities get to that point, when they're used to a lot of aggression or attacks from outside, so the impulse is to defend against ANY negativity, and to push away anyone from "inside" who shares those views. But that's SO destructive to any community in the long-term... if there's no criticism allowed, then there's no way for the group to improve or fix issues, and the only people who will stick around are the ones who aren't experiencing the problems.
But when it's a whole CITY basically doing the same "circle the wagons" type attitude... Fucking yikes.

Oof, I hadn't really even thought of that aspect - how many very temporary community members you have. People who want to go there for a year or two to "find themselves" in whatever fashion, but with no intent to stay... yeah, that's an emotional minefield. I don't think anyone wants to be someone's "weird Portland fling, from my wild 'experimental' days", and at best you're looking at a good relationship that has an expiration date because they're not sticking around. UGH.

Too many people look at a bad, dangerous, damaging situation and just desperately want to ignore it, and hope that it will blow over and go away. Unfortunately... that's just not how things work. Sure, some people are just after the drama or whatever, and BOY IS THERE DRAMA, but trying to hide it happened puts people in danger of it happening again.
The same things DID happen with him again, and I think would have repeated at least a third time if his patterns hadn't been recognized.
Frighteningly similar things have happened within completely different groups of people. (There was a prominent case where a group had really similar cultish 'I am this character' high-control over a group stuff happen around Final Fantasy VII that I remember. Very recently, there was a BNF who lashed out at AO3 for enforcing anti-monetizing rules against her... and it turns out she pulled really similar "I am the physical embodiment of a Very Special Soul, and I have shared this truth with a special inner circle made up of extremely vulnerable people that are convinced they have to do what I say because I'm ~healing them~.")
Seeing how this sort of thing happens DOES protect people. Letting people know, ESPECIALLY when it concerns their own communities and areas is really vital, even if it's unpleasant to like "admit" it happened.

That was 100% the right move for the con you were with to make. Actually helping your attendees and your community as a whole should ALWAYS be more important than optics or "unpleasant associations".

[olivermoss]

I think the grifting jumped the shark a bit during the pandemic with the Red House stuff and people are a little more willing to call it out despite the threat of being called a moderate. But yeah, hot mess at times.

And yeah, the way communities become reactionary and circle the wagons is a lot. Maybe I'd feel different if I was ever on the inside of that, I imagine the belonging is nice, but it comes at the cost of basically shutting down higher brain functions at times... which right now also sounds nice.

Yeah, the people who come for a year to see if they are really poly have a different impact than the ones who come to see if they are really trans. They expect a lot, but never stick around to tutor the next group of newbies. It's been a constant newb flood. I mean, some people in the poly communities are also salty and for good reason, but the impact is very different (and also a lot of the poly set enjoy the constant newbie flood). Gay, bi, poly, trans, kink, etc. For the trans spaces it takes up a LOT of community resources and funding they'll never pay into and also people show up expecting mentors and lots of care, etc. And, guess what, anyone presenting themselves *as* a mentor, the found family you've totally been looking for kids.... it's ripe for finding marks.

One danger of not talking about fandom cults or how people with ~special souls~ can causes a lot of damage is that it's very hard to explain starting from zero. Trying to explain it makes a person sound like they took some tumblr drama way too seriously, took some shitposting too literally. This stuff happens, unfortunately. Too many people fall for the same manipulations and it's all too easy to find vulnerable people in fandom. Also, people using identities as shields, the race-faking, etc. Things don't need to be this messed up, but some people are more concerned with fandom looking respectable or something to admit the problems.

[mistressofmuses]

Oh, I think I heard about the Red House thing. Some family that tearfully crowdfunded a boatload of money to buy their house before developers got a hold of it, but then they took the money and ran? Something like that?

Yeah, I guess the "belonging" part would be appealing... except that most of the time it winds up being super toxic within the group if it goes on too long. It gets very... red scare, time to report on your neighbors in case they're the next ones who might be overly critical. Then again, just being able to shut off the critical, analytical parts of my brain WOULD be nice sometimes. Simple "group of friends good; outside meanies bad" has an appeal for a reason.

Oh, I can see that being a pretty drastic difference. (Jokes about the Greater Pacific Northwest Polycule notwithstanding.) I can imagine a split between the poly community that's frustrated of being yet another experimental fling for someone, and the people who *are* happy with lower-stakes just-for-fun relationships being happy to have a constant stream of people looking for same. But when the person involved is actively seeking resources? It's shit to take with zero interest in giving anything back. I am VERY in favor of community support, in a social, financial, etc. sense... but those sorts of resources only work when it is a COMMUNITY effort. When people show up and want the resources without any interest in actually being a part of the community... that depletes those resources very quickly.

And oh yes. The person who wants to set themselves up as the perfect, wise, helpful mentor/"group mom"/guru etc. ...Maybe sometimes they just really do want to offer support and assistance. But way too often, that is someone seeking out vulnerable marks.

Exactly. It's SO hard to explain how cult groups like that work when you're starting from scratch. It SOUNDS so weird, that's part of how those groups keep their control, because who the hell else will believe you? It sounds weird or silly or like someone was *clearly* just RPing a fantasy story or whatnot.
There's also a lot to be said for finding vulnerable victims within fandom specifically, because there ARE a lot of people who are socially isolated, quite possibly dealing with one or more marginalized identities, and who are primed to believe fantasy stuff. I don't mean that people are incapable of telling fantasy from reality, but just that... well, a lot of people were waiting to find their door to Narnia, and are still secretly a little sad that they didn't. Having someone who IS very cool and charming and convincing (and manipulative), who presents a version of reality in which they ARE special and magical and have access to the things that normal people don't... I can 100% understand why that's appealing to someone who feels otherwise like an outcast.

There are WAY too many people who are much more concerned with the optics of a situation, and wanting to present fandom as this perfect, wonderful, always-respectable thing... to the point that anything that doesn't fit is ignored or downplayed. That same desire to APPEAR perfect leads to the situations where someone is taken at their word as long as they have the right identity... leading to the racefaking and similar, because if claiming an identity is an automatic ticket to authority, shitty people will loudly claim it.

[olivermoss]

Oh no, Red House is so much worse. It's a Moorish Sov Cit who owns two houses in Portland. One he decided that he didn't have to make payments on anymore, so the leftists protected with barrier and human shields sleeping outside in the rain in the pandemic. They were protecting a minority from gentrification, after all. That he was a Trump supporter doesn't matter because our support of minorities can't be conditional.

I am going to assume you know what a Sov Cit is, but not a Moorish one. It's a fringe believe that the Moorish people lived here before them Native Americans came from Asia and drove them out, those colonizers. So, all American land really belongs to Moorish people. Meanwhile, the Q Center that was not even returning calls or emails of any of their various support groups was giving them aid, assistance, access to bathrooms, etc.

It was a bunch of kids LARPing Les Mis and I'd bet anything that those kids were ones who came to Portland looking for their tribe, their found family and some 'leftist leaders' where like 'it's us!' One person who was always at every FTM support group meeting was a radical accelerationist who was there to recruit. How do I know? When I was pretty sure I was done with the group I straight up asked him, expecting denial. I was wrong, he was so glad to be able to talk to someone about what he was doing that he unloaded his frustrations at me about his task for the next hour. ... he's also a 'white passing native american' who knows less about tribal registries and reservation locations than I do... and also wasn't eligible for the vaccine when native americans had priority access and I could go on...

And honestly, during the worst of pandemic isolation I kinda envied the people huddle together in the rain. But at the same time, no, just no.

Even if you aren't waiting for your door to Narnia finding wonderful people who love you is such a thing in geek, fantasy lit and, well, some people do. But looking for it just, yeah, supposed to be so easy here but we've got all those BS.

While my situation might suck, at least I never fell into any of that.

People need to care less about optics. They need to care about their own communities, not how that group looks to outsiders. Ironically, caring too much about optics leads to stuff like Andy pulling the same BS again

[mistressofmuses]

Oh jesus, that is worse.

I'd heard the "but we have to rally around these poor minorities, fighting against the gentrification of their family home!" angle and came away with the impression that it had been misused/weaponized. But I had missed the "moorish sovereign citizen" part, fucking yikes. I know plenty about sovereign citizen nonsense, but the "Moorish" part is a new one on me. (Though I think I've seen a handful of similar claims about how xyz group are the REAL Native Americans, which is always just... such a winning stance. And now that I'm thinking of it, I'm guessing the Moorish Sov Cit thing may have been responsible for a handful of at the time baffling comments I'd once encountered about how support for Natives as the indigenous people of the Americas was inherently anti-Black.)

Fucking wow. The fact that this was the center of SO much support from places that should have been focused on... not that... is extra infuriating.

Ugh, also the fucking accelerationists. For some damn reason (the same damn reason as always. people.), there are several of them on the local goth scene, including where it intersects with the queer scene and the general supposed-socialist-leaning-activist scene, and it drives me up the wall.

The whole "people who love and accept you and are interested in you and want to provide a home/family/place for you" IS the door to Narnia for a lot of people. Add some special metaphysical something on top of it is just sort of a cherry on the whole sundae. Being told by a cult leader new cool friend how you're special enough to be trusted with some big secret, because they see so much potential in you, and they can tell you're trustworthy and the only one who will really ~understand~ them, just like they love and understand you... Yeah, lots of people will buy in to something that sounds silly on the surface, because that sense of love and trust and belonging means so much

I'm extremely glad I never fell into anything like that. But at the same time, I have read accounts from Andy's ex, and other similar stories from people who fell into those sorts of fandom (or more traditional) cults, particularly as lonely teens and twenty-somethings... and I can absolutely see how I *would* have been willing to buy in. I can SEE the allure of feeling like you're part of this uniquely special group, of having that impossibly tight-knit, us-against-the-universe group that you're a part of. I GET why it works for people, and how people get drawn into it.

That's exactly it. Caring more about how something LOOKS than how it IMPACTS PEOPLE is always going to be a shitty decision. Particularly when it comes to community support - within the queer community, fandom communities, or anything else - caring about how it appears to outsiders more than you care about the actual community makes you a bad community member. It's respectability politics in yet another form. And it DOES empower bad actors like Andy, because it *looks bad* to admit that a predator of some type was in our community. Or it *looks bad* to accuse a marginalized person of doing deliberate harm. (Yes, there are also people who will claim a marginalized person is doing harm by simply existing. That is NOT the same thing, and people desperately need to learn the difference.)

[olivermoss]

Red House is one of those things that sounds so unhinged that a lot of 'simplified' versions got passed around.

I used to want that door to Narnia so badly. Well, I still do. Somehow, I was resistant to the blatant BS, though. It sucks seeing people who did have that sort of thing work out for you and they are all like 'why didn't you put effort into finding your tribe?'

I don't know if this town is full of predators or if I am just magic at finding them. Though, honestly it is partially the second half. When I was younger and used to go to Orycon and other meet up stuff certain strong personality types used to partially beeline to me. I look like easy prey to that sort. Hasn't worked out yet.

I have burned some bridges caring more about people than optics. Hasn't gone great for me, but I don't regret it.

[mistressofmuses]

The Red House thing just gets worse and worse all the way down. Damn. I'm not surprised I'd heard a simplified version of it.

I'm with you. I haven't ever really found "my tribe" in the way that it feels like I should have. I have a couple close relationships, with my partner and with my sibling, but other than that? I don't *have* a social circle. I've got coworkers and acquaintances, but no one I'd seek out to do stuff with, or ask to help me in xyz situation.

It's BIZARRE how that sort of thing happens - being a magnet to just... the worst people. On the one hand, I'm glad they wasted their time trying to get at you because it DIDN'T work and you could spot them. On the other, UGH, I'm so sorry you've had to deal with so many of that type!

That's not something you should ever regret, and I'm glad you don't. It sucks that it IS one of those "standing for what's right/standing alone" things, and that it's ended poorly in some ways. But it IS the right thing to do, and it matters.