(no subject)

[olivermoss]

You know the website Does The Dog Die? I wish there was a 'the source of evil in this mystery/thriller is going to turn out to be Gender Troubles' website. The problem with mysteries and thrillers is that what's going on is often a last minute twist. You could, for example, watch 8 hours of a mini series and then ... suddenly...

I am going to spoiler cut this for a recent canon. I am not going to name the canon because ... naming it in this context would be spoiling it. I need to write my own, long take on the whole trans serial killer trope that all that media crit YTers have been talking about recently. One of the problems with the trope is that an actual list of canons using that trope would be constantly contested. It's a super popular trope, but writers don't come out and say it. They ... imply it. In this specific canon, the writers spend an hour on exposition to try to tap dance around the trope, while having the trope. There is always an out. Someone who likes the canon could always argue that no, that's not what's going on.



One of the top most streamed shows recently is Clickbait. There have been many movies, shorts and shows named Clickbait over the past few years. But I am talking about the new Netflix miniseries.

The last minute, very last minute, twist is that the trouble was all started by a background character who is not even named until the show's resolution starts. She has been pretending to be a guy online, and she picked this one poor hapless white dude protagonist. She took his name, face, life story, etc. He winds up being killed over it. She never kills anyone directly, but her 'online games' lead to suicide and murder.

She gets a new lease on life pretending to be one of her mae co-workers online. She images herself as a guy when intimate with her husband. People who know her well use a male variant on her name. Her name is Dawn, but her husband calls her Donny. I am going to continue to use female pronouns for her, but clearly something gender related is going on here. This is never said out loud on the show. Nothing gender related is ever mentioned on a textual level ... despite all the heavy handed coding. There is a 'what she is thinking' fantasy overlaid over her coming onto her husband, and in that fantasy she's the guy.

The show tries so hard to have it's trans serial killer trope and also tap dance around the trope so hard that it winds up taking an hour of exposition right at the end to explain it all. Basically, the show appears to be leading up to one guy as a killer ... then takes a sharp right turn.

I don't need to draw awkward parallels between her taking this guy's identity and how how stealing identities, taking cis people's personhood, is part of the trope. The name thing just makes it so blatant ...and yet if I talked about it on twitter or something, people would likely consider me nuts. I've read a lot of the reviews and reactions to the show, even read some 'ending explained' articles. Nothing mentions anything gender related. If there was a list of 'the plot twist is gender troubles' I'd have to fight to get this show on the list ...

Anyway, it sucked to watch an 8 hour thing and run into that at the end. I could have been rewatching Roswell instead.

At some point I want to write more about the whole 'trans serial killer' trope and the attempts to both have and dance around the trope. I really need to read the book Silence of the Lambs. The film has been talked about a lot by the youtube media crit set. I am not going to defend the film, but I do find some of the critiques to have circular logic. But, I need to read the book, rewatch the film and look at some other thrillers to really walk about the topic. (I do not feel the need to read JKR's mystery books, though. Her motives in writing what she writes is clear. I noped out of HP and never joined the fandom out of red flags in those books. Red flags that are now widely talked about ... but at the time people thought I was being insanely oversensitive for noticing.)

My thoughts are not yet well formed on all of this, but it was just insane to watch a show where the AFAB killer is imaging herself to be a guy socially, sexually and has a male chosen name and like ... no one's talking about it. The show was very well received. The twist is considered to be 'amazing'. Amazing? Really? When the killer was literally Unnamed Background Character and then the show needs to exposition dump for an hour to explain it all? How is that not what mystery audiences hate the most? Maybe a lot of people just really like a certain trope.

Comments

[muccamukk]

I don't watch/read enough mysteries to have run into that, but I do wish that Does the Dog Die would reliably spoil if the lesbians die. It currently does not.

[olivermoss]

I'm into mysteries and it's just a hazard of the genre. Makes me want to go and only re-watch stuff, not watch new stuff.

I wonder how much of fandom's love of rewatching canons is motivated by not wanting surprise transphobia or burying gays? Probably not a lot but still, makes me wonder.

Yeah, those lists tend to be unreliable in general. I just wish I had a way to avoid spending 8 hours getting into a mystery only to be smacked with that.

[muccamukk]

It doesn't sound like watching on rec would have helped you here, because not many people noticed it, either.

At least "Does the lesbian die" is a fairly straight forward question, that (hopefully!) even the straights can answer.

[olivermoss]

Is that people don't notice, or that no one wants to start the next drama? I mean, I am not posting in more public space or the subreddit because I feel I know what it'll turn into. I'm certainly not going to touch twitter with this.

[mistressofmuses]

I appreciate the warning. Alex started watching that recently, and while I was only paying attention vaguely as background noise, I'm glad to be warned that that's the "twist."

That seems... very tapdancey and also very blatant, and this is the first I'm hearing about it. (To be fair, I'm very much not plugged in to current media anything, so unless it happens to pass by my FB feed on a five-minute bathroom scroll, or someone I follow on tumblr brings it up, I can be blissfully/tragically unaware of what IS being talked about.)

But yeah, that doesn't seem like a *reach* that they want to imply gender fuckery is to blame, with *just* enough plausible deniability that they can sidestep it and claim "well, it was just about her being manipulative! it wasn't that she wants to be a man, she just wants power over people, and it was easier to do that with a male persona!" or some shit.

Also, that sounds like a garbage twist, "trans serial killer lite" aside. I LIKE surprise twists, but only when it was a "fair" mystery, where as a viewer you could find the clues, or will recognize the hints and foreshadowing on a rewatch. A "twist" that requires an exposition dump at the end to explain it is NOT THAT.

[olivermoss]

I got pretty caught up in the show. It seemed like the sort of show that wouldn't pull a cheap ending. So, the exposition dump caught me off guard.

I haven't been keeping track of all the times I've run into it, but it feels like they usually leave room to tap dance around it ... except for DC Comic writers who once ran head first into the trope with no nuance or outs.

I need to keep better notes on things I watch sometimes. Usually when I hit a bad ending like that I just want to eject the whole canon from my brain, but I was pretty into the series and, like I said, 8 hours ....

Makes me wonder if stuff like this is part of why so many fannish people just like to rewatch known canons.

[mistressofmuses]

It seemed like the trailer emphasized that it would have twists and surprises, so having the resolution hinge on one that had no setup seems cheap as hell.

It's definitely a trope that seems a lot more common than people think, probably *because* of all that tap dancing room. And if it was just one or two instances, then *maybe* the "it was REALLY about something else" would have some weight. But it's a trope in and of itself at this point.

Same here. If I wind up not liking something, or being actively bothered by it, I usually just try to forget about it, but maybe it would be more worthwhile to keep track of it.

Understandable that this one was extra shitty, having stuck with the series for the whole run time.

Honestly, I think there's merit to that thought. I know that I have a sense of resistance toward new canons (especially tv shows) because it seems like so many have shitty "twists", betray the characters and setup for the sake of dragging out some drama, start strong and then fuck up royally, drag on for way too long... It's hard to even want to get invested in something, because I don't want to be disappointed in it.

[olivermoss]

I know I went through a long period where I'd pretty much table flipped on TV due to how varying writers can change things. The X Files reboot was my breaking point.

I'd be a lot happier right now if I could find some books I actually like. But, the one writer I was got weird about trans people. Someone strongly recced A Companion To Wolves to me. If you don't know that book, it's a whole ... it's a mess. I have trust issues now.

I was just reading in the Charlie Jane Anders book that writers aren't in competition. A reader who enjoys a book goes looking for more, it's the dreaded slump where people stop reading because they can't find what they like that is the problem. And yeah, I've been in that slump for a while. Half of my Lord of the Rings re-reads have been due to giving up. I want to read m/m novels, but most of them are ... weird. It's hard to sort out the good stuff from the people like my friend who is selling at a loss and spends good money on very high quality cover art commissions. A lot of people seem to like the set ups from weird, contrived f/m romance novels but just with dudes and I am just confused by those books.

I feel like I've gone long stretched between canons I like at all at times. I really, really wish I'd gotten back into Leverage sooner. I'd have been much happier.

[mistressofmuses]

God, it's astounding how much a mediocre writer (or one who doesn't seem to have the same goals for a show) can bring a show down. It seems like almost any show that goes on for sufficiently long is doomed to a serious decline in quality, which makes it hard to want to get invested in the first place.

(Plus the current trend of "oh, fans are catching on to what we're setting up? BETTER THROW THAT OUT AND TRY TO ~SHOCK~ THEM." It just feels like punishing people for caring.)

Mostly I use my younger sibling as a dowsing rod to find books I enjoy, because luckily we have very similar taste.

I have not heard of or read Companion to Wolves, but I'm sorry it was a mess that was a bad recc. I've definitely gotten a few of those before, where like... I'm wary of trusting any suggestions because something was SO BAD.
(I have MAYBE still not recovered from the time a friend from high school told me that if any books were written, like, just specifically for me, it was the Twilight series. :|)

I never heard it that way before, but that's an EXCELLENT point. Writers *shouldn't* be in competition, because a reader liking one author's work doesn't mean they won't read another's... but I'd never heard it put that way that the slump where readers quit reading is a far bigger threat.

I've felt in that slump recently-ish, though not solely due to lack of good stuff to read. I'm trying to come out of it!

Every once in a while I can go for a good trope-laden mess, but... so often that just feels awkward and boring and generic. I want memorable characters, and a romance that doesn't hinge on a Big Misunderstanding with objectively low stakes, that could avert half the page count and all the angst if the people involved would talk to each other like adults.

I'd be happy to give reccs, but I also don't want to steer you wrong!

I think this whole issue is part of why I'm watching Leverage soooo sloooowly. It's one of the first new-to-me canons that I pretty much know I'll enjoy all the way through, and as much as I enjoy rewatches, I don't want to rush through it either. (Which sends me too far in the opposite direction, of hoarding unwatched episodes like gold.)

[olivermoss]

Let me know if you want me to explain the deal with A Companion To Wolves. It's sort of infamous in some parts of fandom. It's basically an inversion of M/M tropes in a very unpleasant way.

Part of why I am gun shy is that the reccs I get are so bad ... and maybe there isn't much good m/m out there, or at least not what I am looking for. I want another Luck in the Shadows (minus the weird turn the series took when the author discovered uke-ification. I pretend just the first 3 books exist, and they work as a stand alone). I don't want weird 'holiday magic' romance tropes. Also, a large percentage of the books I've read are 'I don't like this guy ... but the way he looks ... he's ... MY TYPE' and is attracted in spite of themselves. It never feels like the couple actually like each other? It's always 'oh no, that exact shape of their eyes, it's irresistible to me!'

I don't get the appeal. Is this a just me thing? Am I too used tot fanfiction where 'these two people feel very strongly about each other' is typically something being explored?

I don't know if I am just getting the worst reccs, if I am looking for something sideways to any existing genre or if m/m is just full of incredibly derivative crap.

I like tropes, but I don't like the tropes I am finding in the m/m books I find.

If you have reccs, I'll take a look. I might not try them. I might just peer at the Amazon page warily. But, anything is better than trying to browse on Amazon itself ... or get reccs from my usual sources.

The big misunderstanding with low stakes also doesn't appeal to me.

I guess this is part of why I am stuck on writing, I want to get some of what I consider interesting out there.

I think TV shows get messed up partially because showrunners and key writers tend to change. For seasons 1 and 2 more is spent on the show, then it goes into maintenance mode and a lot of the better writers who can command larger salaries go on to the next project. The new team might not even understand what the old team was going for.

After the X Files reboot I got into audio dramas for a while, but that was a whole new set of problems. The good ones got optioned, but then no TV show was ever made leaving them as WIPs. Also, some savvy writers saw how many podcasts got optioned and made a lot of season 1s of things, with no intention of continuing, just because they audio dramas were briefly the new hotness in hollywood. All of it became vaporware. Like a lot of people I've been looking for a 'new The Black Tapes' to no avail.

[mistressofmuses]

If you've got the time, please do explain it to me. I know I've heard the title, and have a vague inkling of a negative connotation with it, but I do not know the details.

I haven't heard of Luck in the Shadows, though maybe I'll need to give the first few books a read, if they were good.

To be honest, I don't have a ton of m/m reccs anyway, because I haven't found all that much that stuck out in a good way. I've found some that was... fine... but not something I'd feel a strong desire to reread or ask others to read.

Most of what I have read and liked was popular enough that I probably don't have much in the way of "hidden gems", I'm afraid, so it's likely either stuff you have read or didn't want to read, haha. But if I find anything, I'll pass it on.

Do you have any big NOPES/squicks/etc to keep in mind for reccs? Or any other books/series that you know you didn't like? (Not that that will necessarily help me, since there's a good chance I haven't heard of them, lol.) (m/m stuff specifically, or more general wants/do not wants for other genres as well.)

I don't *always* mind "I don't like this guy, but oh no, he's hot" as a starting point, but if the story never does the work to establish a connection OTHER than "oh no, he's hot", then I'm never going to really buy in, and I hate stuff that just seems to be... mashing the two leads together without any chemistry beyond "well, they are physically attractive to each other."

Holiday magic is a boring-ass trope, at least to me. I've TRIED a few times to get into cute m/m and f/f romances that feature it, because people have told me how good they are, and I just CAN'T.

Maybe we are spoiled by fic. I know that's not an uncommon analysis regarding the popularity of fanfic - it allows for much more introspective and character-driven relationships than is common in a lot of published work. Fic has the added benefit of bringing the canon character history (whether canonically romantic or not) into play, but I'll read and enjoy AUs for canons I know next to nothing about just because there's still a better DEPTH of interaction and emotional connection.

That is absolutely a big culprit in TV quality declines. (Oh American Gods, you could have been so good. WHAT A SHAME THERE WAS NOTHING AFTER SEASON 01.)

I should really listen to more podcasts, but it's another thing I haven't found a good opportunity to set aside time for. But I've had a few I really enjoyed, and I like the medium. The Black Tapes is one that is on the "bet I'd like it" list, but I haven't listened to yet.

[olivermoss]

I posted about A Companion to Wolves in a separate thread. CW: Rape

Luck in the Shadows is the first book in a fantasy series. It's not romance, it's genre with m/m in it. I enjoyed the first two books, but yeah don't read the whole thing.

Also, oh no, don't get started with The Black Tapes. It starts out good. For a while I was reccing it to everyone. It ends bad. The writer basically torpedoed it so thoroughly that it became a meme in audio drama groups. Reactions to the ending were popular.

Actually, it's worse than that. The creator said to raise a certain amount of money so he could give it an ending, the the fandom did! And then he bascially had a meltdown that it wasn't enough to live on and demanded more ... and fandom did. And then ... Yeah, it was a whole thing.

Though, considering how many people want 'a new black tapes' maybe I should write something like that. People say Lost Media as a plot hook is overdone, but all these years later people want 'black tapes but good'.

I don't have any big squicks or dislikes that I can think of?

Have you read the Tyack & Frayne series? It's not super great or anything, but it's the most solid m/m series I've read so far. At no point does it makes me want to table flip.

[mistressofmuses]

Fucking wow that sounds horrible, in terms of content, message, AND as a recc. What the fuck?

I like genre with m/m (or otherwise queer) pairings! (Sometimes more than I enjoy stories that are primarily romance, though it depends on the work.)

I'll have to remember Luck in the Shadows... at least that book, though I'll believe you that the whole series isn't great.

That IS what I've mostly heard about The Black Tapes; that the ending was terrible, and the creator wound up being kind of a dbag. But I was also told that it was good enough at the start to be worth listening to, though I'm not sure I want to deal with the disappointment, haha.

Honestly, I LOVE "lost media" stuff. I don't really care that it's considered "overdone" or whatnot, because I think it's interesting! It's a trope/subgenre that I almost always enjoy. So I'd be into it if you write such a thing!

I have not read the Tyack and Frayne series. It didn't sound familiar, but looking at the books, I feel like maybe I have looked at them before, though not read them. Not everything has to be a masterpiece - sometimes I want something that's solid and enjoyable. (And it sounds like a fun concept!)

Like I said, I honestly haven't read all that MUCH (because so much that I have read has been... mediocre.)

For genre stuff, the Shades of Magic trilogy had a pretty decent secondary m/m couple, though one of the characters isn't introduced until the second book. The series also has what I think is one of the best book 3s of any trilogy I've read in a long while. (The first book is solid and enjoyable, the second was fine, and the third was real good.) It also features a pretty good redemption arc for a different character and some creepy villains. The m/m romance is quite secondary, though.

Another genre one (which was pretty popular, so you've probably seen it recc'd before, or already read it), was The House in the Cerulean Sea. This is another one that falls very much on the "sweet" side. It's very fluffy and found-family, which I know doesn't appeal to everyone, but I enjoyed it. My experience reading it was that it *felt* like the books that I was excited to read as a kid. Adventurey and fun, though it itself is not really a kid's book. Not due to inappropriate content, but because the characters and conflicts are definitely more a part of adult life. The main character and his love interest are also both older.

And my controversial recc that I'm sure you've also seen or read before: the Captive Prince trilogy. Romance is the primary genre, but it's a fantasy setting (though without magic or religion, which I found pretty interesting.) It was a big target for antis for a while, largely because the main couple start out very deeply and genuinely hating each other. But it is imo one of the "enemies to lovers" romance arcs that puts in the work to earn the eventual HEA. I love competence porn, which the series has in spades, and I deeply enjoy the way the author writes dialogue. It also utilizes perspective very well, in that the MC has very strong biases that mean he frequently comes away with incorrect assessments. There ARE absolutely "problematic" aspects to the characters and things they do, though I do not think the hatred it got was earned. It also has one of the best book 2s I've read out of a trilogy, imo.

If I find any other books (especially m/m) that really blow me away, or stick out in good ways, I'll pass on the reccs (though of course to take or leave!) I feel like it's maybe worth at least trying to find new things... I gave up for years after finding so much stuff that just... sucked, lol.

[olivermoss]

I am actually tempted to re-listen to the start of The Black Tapes and break down what was so compelling about it. Even recently, if I am poking in audio drama comms, there are still people who are basically looking for the next TBT. While people do complain about lost media as a trope, it also feels like there is an itch for it going unscratched.

I'll take a look at those reccs!

I think one of the problems with reccs is that they can be given for weird reasons. In Audiodrama comms people will pimp their faves even if they are the exact opposite of what people are asking for. With small creators there is a sense of 'this will only continue to exist if I get enough people into it'. With m/m fic there is the added thing where people are pimping their actual friends, or slash fic authors they used to read, and it's hard to find the good reccs among everyone just wanting to make sales for a friend or make sure the author who matches their id can keep writing.

In AD comms, sometimes people would look for something objective about a series, like 'completed only'. Then, reliably, people would recc stuff like Darkest Night or Tanis and if I pointed out that no, that is the opposite of what they are asking for, people would get upset at me. And it's like, the shitty state of reccs is part of why people stop listening. The last AD I gave a chance to, it turned out that part of the story was Patreon-only. Again, don't recc that with a heads up.

[mistressofmuses]

I feel like any trope has people who like it and people who don't. Or people who like it exactly once, and then don't want to see it again. There are certainly examples of lost media that aren't great, or are too derivative, but I think that well done incarnations will always be good. Though again, I do say that as a fan of the subgenre, ha.

That is true - there are a LOT of recc lists that seem to have... ulterior motives. That's a little overdramatic, probably. Not that it's bad for people to want to recc their faves; that's part of what recc lists ARE. But when someone is looking for something specific, trying to push things that don't suit the request isn't going to be a good recc.

And yeah, reccing stuff that doesn't suit a very specific, objective criteria (like "completed only" or "available for free" etc.) is a bad recc!

For AD, did you ever listen to Within the Wires? I'm at least two seasons behind, and keep failing to go back to it, because I want to relisten to the earlier seasons. The seasons each stand alone, sharing a broader setting, but taking place at different points along an alternate history definitely-dystopian timeline. Each season also has its own sort of frame story/reason for the recordings existing.
The first is a series of recordings disguised as "meditation exercises" being given to a person in a medical facility... though it turns out that the narrator is trying to help the target escape. (I wouldn't put romance on the genre list in the slightest, but the main relationship is f/f.) If you give it a listen, I'd suggest at least listening through episode 2... the first one I remember mostly finding sort of weird, but the second episode captured my interest more.)
The second season is set up as art museum guided tours, talking about the work of a famous painter who was friends with the narrator, which starts to touch on the alternate history of this world as well as the narrator's complicated history with the other artist.
If I do relisten to the earlier seasons, I should at least write something up about the third season for trans media club, as the narrator of season three is a trans man. That season is set up as a series of personal dictation recordings that he makes about his work for the political powers that are in control in this alternate timeline, and some possibly political possibly threats being made toward him, plus his floundering home life.
I really enjoyed the way the worldbuilding was set up in the background, especially in the first and second seasons. The third is a bit more direct, but at that point that's a good thing.)
(I can't speak for S04/S05 and beyond, since I haven't listened to them, so maybe it gets disappointing later, ha. I do think there may be a patreon-exclusive season, but not anything necessary to the rest.)

[olivermoss]

There is also the real-world lost media movement. People are insanely dedicated to finding even snippets of songs. I've seen some videos on the searches and they get nuts. The biggest searches are often after media that probably never existed or was just someone doing a weird solo thing online that no one cared about at the time.

I'll check out that audio drama.

The one AD I liked was Victoriocity because they make all the seasons stand alone. The first season was amazing! The second was alright. I backed them for S2 and also a special stand-alone episode specifically because of their commitment to producing complete works instead of cliff hangers. If they do an S3 I'll toss them a few bucks again.

I *think* I really liked Penumbra, but they were re-doing the early episodes and it became a mess on the aps and I never got back into it.

[mistressofmuses]

Real world lost-media stuff is fascinating! I've seen descriptions of things that people remember, but can't find any evidence of. I mean, who doesn't half half-remembered weird snippets of things they saw on TV as a little kid while home with a fever, or in the middle of the night? Lol.
I'm sure most of it is nothing, or yeah, some independent thing that someone weirdly caught. But it's still interesting!

And of course, a perennial creepypasta theme. :) Candle Cove, the weird Petscop youtube series (which I think just sort of... ended... but was pretty interesting for a while.)

I haven't heard of Victoriocity! I'll have to give it a look.

Penumbra has been recced to me a few times, and may be one I look at after I finish The Magnus Archives. (Which I'm close to finished with, and have also enjoyed.)

[olivermoss]

The drive behind Lost Media is baffling to me. I've gone on serious media hunts and tried to preserve things, but that has to do with how unequally queer media gets preserved. Or how often things can be cut out. My interest comes out of a dread of cultural erasure that I can probably track back at least to college were half the copies of The City and The Pillar we used in a Queer Lit class had all the gay cut out of them. The books appeared identical and had the same edition number, but slightly different title pages. Half the class showed up wondering why we'd been assigned the book and the teacher had a very frustrated conversation with some of the students until the problem was sorted out. But most of momentum behind Lost Media has nothing to do with that. I can think of interesting ideas behind the drive, but I don't know what it is in reality.

[mistressofmuses]

There is definitely a disparity regarding queer media preservation (and accessibility - things that had extremely limited releases, or never made it to a "home-media" format, etc.)

Oh god, that sounds kind of horrifying, regarding that college class. Censorship of that kind is SO VERY not an unheard of thing, even relatively recently, and I hate that so many people seem to think that censorship is a thing of the distant past that would never happen now.

Yeah, I feel like the drive for Lost Media is probably fairly varied between different people. When I've heard about an individual's interest, it's usually that it's something they remember and no one else seems to. But sometimes it seems almost random, with people looking for things they have no connection to, which I don't quite understand.

[olivermoss]

A Companion to Wolves, here we go. It starts out like an m/m novel and often looks like one to the average consumer. It appears on m/m lists since it does have m/m sex. A young man has some sort of magical power and is chosen by a wolf, but this means he's going to wind up mated to another man. His father is upset because he thinks his son is going to be raped and treated poorly ... and the father is right.

The main character is straight. The sex he has to endure is rape. And by rape I don't mean 'non con for people who like that sort of thing'. This is not written to be enjoyable to people into non-con. He winds up with two mates, both of whom actually love him but he doesn't know or understand this. And ... things are just left that way.

The only validating thing in his life is a straight relationship he has outside the clan. That ends when she gets pregnant. He doesn't get to have a connection to the kid.

It's like ... all the usual late-90s slash tropes, but turned upside down. He is just empty, hollow, can't even maintain friendships, etc ... and not in some long-suffering woobie way. This treats those tropes as horrific.

It just does the set ups for typical m/m slash fic relationships over and over, and then it's just him trying to keep going as he dies more inside and is more and more isolated.

Then none of the character arcs ever really get an ending, because they time skip to his kid being grown and follow her story. Also after the time skip the author decides to he 'trans aware' and now AFAB people can be forced into soul-destroying sex magic too? I didn't read the time skip part, I've only heard of it.

Oh, also, on top of all that ... the protection of the wolf warriors starts to not be needed. Their way of life is coming to an end. So, all this sacrifice the main character is making for the good of the people starts to be all for nothing.

I have no idea what the authors were thinking, but it reads like someone familiar with slash tropes decided to write something showing that slash is icky and emasculating actually. People familiar with Pern say it's sort of a meta on the 'logical conclusion' of the tropes in Pern. I haven't read Pern, so I don't know.

In any case it's the worst recc to give someone who likes slash without a few caveats. Some people love it for the world building and for it being a meta take. It's also impressively bleak if you are into that. It is well written and engrossing, it just also feels like it's dragging everything I like through the mud. So, it's a super divisive book.

So yeah, my reading books people recced to me hasn't gone well!

I am so bored of dealing with stuff like this. I want to like things, have good things to recc, be promoting cool stuff.

[mistressofmuses]

That... sounds horrible, actually. Like... really, really horrible.

I'm not a fan of unending bleakness, and while I guess I can appreciate meta (and I do LOVE good worldbuilding), it absolutely sounds like "fuck you if you actually like m/m romance or slash because it's bad, and you should feel bad."

Especially if no one gives caveats about All Of That, I can see that being a HORRIBLE recc to give someone, jesus.

[olivermoss]

I can see why someone who doesn't get what the duo of authors are taking jabs at might find it fascinating, bleak and epic. But yeah, it's a mess.

While I am very gun shy about finding new books, I think I have also had exceptionally horrid luck with reccs. That is just ... bad.

[mistressofmuses]

I guess that's fair - not understanding the context might change the way the work comes across. But UGH. I hate everything about that, lol.

That IS awful luck, and I don't blame you for being gun-shy about reccs after shit like that, ha. Which sucks, because *good* reccs are my favorite way to find something. I'd rather have someone I know suggest a new piece of media to me than base it on browsing covers, or having the amazon algorithm push a sponsored product, or a generic-sounding cover-excerpt review.

But YIKES.

[olivermoss]

In the early days of Amazon, I could use their algorithm to find stuff I actually want. Now, no, not even close. It's a mess.

[mistressofmuses]

If we *have* to live lives by algorithm, I wish it could be in the days where it was sometimes accurate or had a decent shot of showing me something I'd like.

Now, even searching for a specific title and author gives "sponsored products" above the actual book in question.

[olivermoss]

Ten trillion years ago, Amazon used a 'users like you' feature to recommend books and products. It was amazing! Now it just wants to push the highest profit margin trash. Also, since I bought some m/m stuff I am suddenly overrun with ads for HET romance on every site where I get ads. It's like ... this is so not what I want.

[mistressofmuses]

RIGHT?

Like, dear targeted ads... you GREATLY misunderstand the draw behind what I purchased.

Because fucking same - every time I look at some sort of queer romance, whether I even buy it or not, for days and weeks I get ads for the most generic looking het romances. Like, sorry ad algorithm, but you do not understand what I was looking for or interested in.