Some babble about reading books on writing

[olivermoss]

Inspired by having finished J Michael Straczynski's Becoming a Writer: Staying a Writer



Early in JMS's book he says writing can't be taught. The book talks more about the business and avoiding scams than writing.

At one point he says:

'I am not a director, but when I do direct... on the first day of shooting I always make it a point to give the actor a note about something I didn't like about his or her performance. It doesn't matter if I have to invent a critique. Later, when I praise them they are more willing to accept it as truth.'

I listened to the audiobook version, but I went back and found this part to make sure I wasn't paraphrasing. This is from the chapter where you are supposed to hand the book over to 'your person' who supports you through your writing. I don't have one so I just read it myself. JMS talks about how to handle having a writer as 'your person' since the writing will always come first. He then gives the following anecdote to talk about how to manage your partner asking for feedback. Yeah, uh, that is ... that is an approach. Lie to gain trust...

He talks a few times about lying. He also talks about winning arguments on twitter and yelling at a fan at comic con. He repeatedly says not every writer is like him, but that the vast majority are.... and are too socially maladapted to be able to make eye contact. I assume he's being a bit tongue in cheek, but he repeatedly makes fun of the idea that writers could have friends.

There's a lot to unpack here dot gif

I got some benefit out of reading the book. Writers like JMS influenced me and my idea of what a writer was. There was some good advice in there... but mostly it let me unpack some ideas I picked up long ago and never really unpacked.

Also, I've picked up a few books on writing and did not finish most of them for various reasons. I wanted to finish this even if I didn't get much out of it.

I tried to read Stephen King's On Writing, but it's mostly disconnected anecdotes about his life. I don't think the implied advice in his anecdotes would be good advice for me. He just relentlessly got his name out there, flung stories at publishers from about age 13. I think most writers would wind up having all their stuff go permanently in the round file. I kept reading for a bit, but just dropped it.

I also read some of Never Say You Can't Survive: How to Get Through Hard Times By Making Up Stories by Charlie Jane Anders

The subtitle was appealing, especially mid-pandemic. I learned about it from John Roger praising the book on twitter. I think it's good. I agree with a lot of it. I really liked parts about why writers aren't in competition with each other. (JMS also has a section on why writers aren't in competition with each other and it's... very much in a different direction. Both writers are opposites on many things.)

But the book also focuses hard on forming communities. Writers need tight communities and writing is enriched by the writer having relationships and being part of the world.

I agree, but how hard she goes on how creatively soulless people are without all that... it's not not a book I can read while living alone in the middle of a pandemic. I've been around people who I know exactly once since this all started.

I think her book is great. I think she's right about a lot of things. I'd recc the book... but I cannot read it myself because it puts me in a terrible and hopeless headspace.

I am going to read, or least start, three more books on writing. I don't know if this is the best use of my time but I figure it's better to explore writing craft books for a bit rather than wonder 'if I had just read a book on writing years ago maybe I'd have been better off'. I am going to thoroughly explore it as an option.

I grew up reading fantasy authors with sixties and seventies counter culture sensibilities. I'd picked up from reading those books that formal education in creative writing will kill your creativity. Sometimes this was an implied theme or metaphor, sometimes there was a main character who was a write and outright said it. When I was in college I took one anyway. I wanted to try it out for myself. Everyone else in the class aspired to be a serious litfic writer. They wanted to explore themselves and then share that with the world. When it came my turn I said I wanted to write about a space station that was being haunted. The class was structured around doing writing assignments and then peer reviewing each other. My classmates wanted me to just leave. I know this because they told me. The class was small, hand a long waiting list and I was taking up valuable real estate. My attempt at having formal writing instruction from my college went horribly. But I've never had to wonder 'what if' or mentally beat myself up for following the biases of Mercedes Lackey too much and losing out on opportunities.

These days a lot of the writers I like and follow on twitter did learn writing in school. If I'd never at least tried I'd be very pissed at myself.

So, I am going through a few writing books for the same reason. Best case scenario: they help. Worst case: I never have to wonder or thing 'what if I had just...'

Comments

[muccamukk]

On a prose level, I do like Steering the Craft by Le Guin, though it's a work book and you really have to do the exercises (guess if I've ever finish it, go on! Guess!)

For writing genre, I remember finding David Gerrold's book, which I've forgotten the name of, useful. It was perhaps a bit prescriptive, but I still use some tricks from it. It was also a lot more writing technique than anything.

ETA: I live in the woods, so I count online people as my writing community.

[olivermoss]

Le Guin's book is on my list. I think the workbook approach would be good for me. I think at times when I was flailing for a handle on how to write, writing exercises was what I was looking for. I could also go through it in bits and pieces if the exercises are a lot.

I don't think a prescriptive book is too bad, as long as you take it in context. I mean, by JMS's definition I am not a writer, so if I took him too seriously...

[oracne]

I love Steering the Craft, too. Though I could read anything she wrote all day long, I love her prose that much, so I might be biased.

[mistressofmuses]

"Never have to wonder" is a good motive.

I hope you share some thoughts on the other writing books you read, good or bad.

My experience with most writing group type things have been similar to yours with the creative writing class you took. "Srs Bsns LitFic vs dirty genre trash." I'm dirty genre trash all the way, fite me.
(The only person I personally know who had a truly completely positive experience with a creative writing class was my sibling, and I think that was because they were able to take a creative writing class specifically focusing on speculative fiction.)

Oof at the book that focuses on the community aspect. Ouch. I'm afraid I'd have the same feelings right now, as much as that subtitle appeals to me, too.

[olivermoss]

Yeah, I'll probably babble about them :)

Honestly, a lot of trying it is cognitive offload. No wondering if I am being the dumb in the middle of a late night writing session ... dumb about that at least :) In the long term I'll spend less mental energy on the books if I just read them.

I am going to read Le Guin's book, Save The Cat Writes a Novel and Romancing The Beat. The last two are very basic, intro, how to books afaik. The exact kind I've been warned against. But, again, no worrying that I'm like tripping over something dumb that a newbie would know better than to do. I also don't mind writing a few formulaic things to see what it's like. (Also hey completed work is completed work)

If I could get an edit of Never Say You Can't Survive without those parts, that'd be great.

[oracne]

I am terrible at Plot and following beats like the latter two books, yet I found last year that I was helped, a little, but a similar sort of outline structure. I ended up redoing it for my own purposes, and not always following what it did, but it gave me some structure when I needed it.

I bought this book recently - I haven't read it yet, but it looks great: https://hydrahousebooks.com/catalog/pocket-workshop/

[olivermoss]

Yeah, so far Save The Cat is a mix of good advice, but also a really rigid formula. I might try the formula as an exercise, but I don't think I'll be following it like a code. I do need help with plotting, though, particularly with endings.

[mistressofmuses]

That's perfectly reasonable. Just not having to wonder if The Secret (TM) could have been revealed in a writing book.

And especially if anything DOES offer some useful or beneficial advice. I'm a big fan of stealing tools that work and discarding the stuff that doesn't.

Le Guin's book might be interesting - I'd be interested in knowing what she has to say about writing, anyway. I've heard a fair number of things about Save the Cat and Romancing the Beat. Sometimes a decent intro to a thing can point out something really helpful. I hope that winds up being the case!
And completed work is definitely completed work!

I think a pandemic-era edit of that book would be extremely welcome.

[olivermoss]

Either The Secret(tm) or at least the missing piece.

It's like realizing that most landscape and cityscape images you like use expensive ND filters. The camera and lens are listed, but there is this third thing and most people realize it ... you are just out of the loop.

There is a lot to discard in these books! I'll post about Save The Cat Writes A Novel when I'm done, but already parts make my teeth itch.

[mistressofmuses]

Yeah, a missing piece is probably the more likely thing to find, if there's something there to be found and used.

That's a good analogy for it. Those little extra techniques that you don't realize that you don't know about. Sometimes it might even be something that everyone *thinks* is a given, so don't even realize they should mention or explain.

Haha, knowing what's worthwhile and what can be tossed aside is a very valuable distinction to make. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on it - though teeth itching doesn't sound promising, except in that "tear it apart!" way.

[olivermoss]

Missing steps can mess you up or make you think you're just being thick.

Yeah, the Save The Cat book isn't going great. I am currently planning on finishing, but it might result in a long post. The author and I are opposites on a few things.

[mistressofmuses]

Absolutely. And it definitely falls into the "don't know what you don't know" category, so it can be super hard to figure it out for yourself.

I look forward to finding out what things you disagree with the author on, haha.

[olivermoss]

It might be a long post! The audiobook is ten hours and I am only two hours in, and I've got a lot of notes.

The core of it is that the writer things that in all novels the MC's problems are always only internal and ever looking for an external goal (like finding a job to feed their family) is always a mistake. They are very clear, very repeatedly clear, that they mean all stories. I have many things to say about this idea.

Also, their beat sheet formula is super rigid, down to counting words and scenes.

[mistressofmuses]

Oh my, that does sound like there may be Some Thoughts.

Anything that says ALL THINGS MUST BE THIS WAY NO EXCEPTIONS gets a side-eye from me. Honestly I do agree that you often need to have internal *motivations* for your protagonist... but external *problems* are absolutely a thing. I mean... take a murder mystery. I hope the hero-detective has strong internal motivation, and maybe even some sort of personal (internal) stake in the case... but the murder seems to be a definite external problem. Or even the most basic sf/f "save the world" plot. The characters probably have internal arcs and problems to overcome, but... the world ending is very much a problem.

I do remember hearing how rigid the beat sheet formula was for Save the Cat. Like, down to exact page numbers and wordcounts (scene numbers and minutes for the screenplay version). While I recognize the utility of a strong outline (and doing so can prevent frequent plotting problems, like the "sagging middle" and such), something THAT rigid feels... eh? I'm sure it can be done in a way that doesn't feel TOO formulaic or predictable, but sometimes when I'm reading or watching something I feel like I can see the plot structure showing through the work, and I don't enjoy that.

[olivermoss]

Yeah, your reaction is similar to mine. I think a character should change and grow over the course of a story and all characters are flawed, but this dogged insistence that seeing anything external as a problem or that ever chasing an external solution is them headed in the wrong direction is just baffling to me.

The book just hit the DNF pile. It's so ... smug.

'Now if you are feeling the urge to argue with me over this take a deep breath, calm down and channel that energy somewhere productive: your novel' <- that's what broke me.

[mistressofmuses]

I'm very baffled at "external anything is Bad Actually". Having a story with solely external motivations and a character with no internal life going on would be pretty boring. But like... "throw the One Ring into Mount Doom to keep Sauron from taking over the world" is a pretty big external problem, actually. There's internal struggle there too, but... having nothing external to the characters to me would seem like they aren't really participating in the world to an extent.
Antagonists or antagonistic forces are almost by definition something external to the protagonist character. While overcoming a character flaw or weakness is a good part of an arc, "the real antagonistic force was inside us all along" feels like a pretty weak realization for most stories, haha.
Idk, that sounds like such weird advice.

Ugh, that sounds very DNF-worthy. Yuck. What an asshole thing to say, lol.

[annathecrow]

I really like your idea of trying a learning approach just so you can say you did try. Good against "what if"s.

I've read a handful of "how to be a writer" books as an older teenager, when I still really wanted to be a Real Published Author. All I remember from that time is that they all insisted that "if you don't want to put in the work, you don't really want to be a writer", and how that scared me.

Well, they were right. Now I'm not a writer, I just write. :P

Last "how to be a writer" book I've read was "Bird by Bird" by Anne Lamott, mostly because it's often recommended not just a writing manual, but general life advice. I liked 3/4 of it, and the rest I kept shaking my head and saying "your experiences are not universal, ma'am". She does a very specific type of litfic writing, and some of the things she advises don't really work for SFF storytelling. But I liked that it doesn't have that "git gud" approach of those books I read as a teen.

Honestly, the most impactful writing advice I got was from reading wrex-writes over on Tumblr.

[olivermoss]

I read Bird By Bird in high school for some reason. The 'take it bird by bird' anecdote was useful, but the rest? Nope. I remember chaffing at that book.

That's part of the problem. Genre writing has different needs from litfic writing, and so many books and programs talk take litfic as default. My college class took litfic as default. I did a dialogue weekend intensive through once and... and everyone else was there to just squee over the author. I thought it was a class, turned out that most people expected it to be like a VIP meet & greet at a con. When I tried to get us back on topic, I got angry DMs. Anyway, when we DID talk dialogue it was all stuff that does work great with genre except in very rare and specific instances.

I am going to write a lot of fanfic, do a 7 novel or novella urban fantasy series and also write some other origfic. I know some people don't think you are a real writer unless you write all day long, but a lot of creators I've followed write a set amount each day and then also do other things, and those other things recharge their writing batteries.

The thing that has helped me the most are the Trope Talks by Overly Sarcastic Productions. Some of that analysis really helped me de-bug certain things about my writing.

[annathecrow]

yeah, genre fic has its own needs. At least (most) people don't look down at it as they used to, even if litfic is still higher on the hierarchy, so to speak.

I wouldn't even mind if people used "writer" just for people who do it full-time, if so many didn't expect that's the goal and if you don't aim for that you're a failure, or at least weird. Would I like more free time to write? Sure. Would I ever leave my well-paying, good-fit-for-my-attention-span profession for that? Hell to the no.

I've watched one Trope Talk and oooh, yeah, that gave me a lot of thoughts about my writing. Thanks for the rec!